220 41473 <65d69c2c-3fa1-40a5-8120-53bfd345ac90@isocpp.org> article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: will wray Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Allow array as function return value Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 07:52:40 -0800 (PST) Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: <65d69c2c-3fa1-40a5-8120-53bfd345ac90@isocpp.org> References: <8a165c32-718a-4247-93b4-44235a2cf122@isocpp.org> Reply-To: std-proposals@isocpp.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_908_1554217323.1550591560645" Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="61156"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" To: ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals Original-X-From: std-proposals+bncBC7LL4HG4IBRBSOMWDRQKGQEMB6WYYY@isocpp.org Tue Feb 19 16:52:45 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-yw1-f70.google.com ([209.85.161.70]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1gw7hM-000FnV-NS for gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 16:52:45 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-yw1-f70.google.com with SMTP id a199sf2509096ywe.23 for ; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 07:52:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isocpp-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=a4mD6CcjQZEqy64Z3wJX68dKq/3/beWtIVro1uXhcTs=; b=hIBfuA1jUJfQYhlOgvDUF2wyLWJx1oKogGhHLNc0oZn/U06AoyNMhObelfCGMwhN94 wKtwK6zEpSXWNVThaE4eyVksVwnxs1BgeeZXnLaQD8UrpOgi4YYWIh+WL5HrRLM1VGak 3I0RI5ZF/OABnsowAqUr+ERY8whqB0f7iUXbKIRFokfcZ9hZBnVdicdwj/pNvMDFHL4J IqkHSOp1cmStERvZTX1b/Ya1q9QD9yO2Ke4S6KEoSQ40YZ7FsvPtXM3BI/K3Nd6ksgM2 NUMCsJRJcHHeCt29AKuU+0mddM6qlPL54KNyeHtt15m+hXKHN3/xwsVl5EIibVuHkhBw lR1w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=a4mD6CcjQZEqy64Z3wJX68dKq/3/beWtIVro1uXhcTs=; b=AyOUMHMKQjtefSy+qf+NQ+OIZtLBAulDSkkGhGxSRVvk5zSI2NtgmFRUg66NqabMp6 M9yc4VWAr/qrtJF/GD+YfhUV8Bo3DuoWddOLhDu2WVRZgOTZDkWaKHfw8gVakl+5tf/K zzIWNBje7tzYY0H3jOlr7ChTmRC/OH6qeujOnVA8aemRPu4uNvHEdfkULtOQpzQgQEwO 4X1bclG7ZzHoomualvZ7s0DywS567ro8RQMvgkuYp0SHFjGEP34Pe7T38fr5UsfCr2Q6 j3dLk2QbMHTTXipMl1fMSgzgfTpj7OeinsxzuqDLJHTNkCRfrxU37FbVge3SWGfvkGTv BjFg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=a4mD6CcjQZEqy64Z3wJX68dKq/3/beWtIVro1uXhcTs=; b=GkRBkrnlFP6ql6S8m79rjvAKUac7fW5LOciQABv86lcbZsA5dLrh5INWB/OFMa7kze FABKyaP7AujEXE3YPtBeGRimrpd5NZAz/Y4yJh0ntfi1HWzUuxaxgcnsjvXgJgQ4mXAF YhlpO3q8z1zKNO1vNf8vheiH7IMYi0fvtSjGQSzp86plPFfaHbTJIpOybVP7qR8xPd8E 3UDJkYWXKAUWzblQ8RDmKt4pqz2po9mXNuhmdB7yw+J6onpD1S0emNTq+PZ61J9VoSXI k/+0kpE61jdaABvDP78GTHtqIzKMMcliHBwb7ZrsFmfyYw391UpEqBxgAYdMycNJ9fvd rW4g== X-Gm-Message-State: AHQUAuaX26Duz5cVON3NPrQ6ikEzTFJoOR3lO4WxSlYRARkulypwrhgv jFXFoXXPwN/kfGZMnFUScHhgBw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AHgI3IaG0gEaff0TKOxoQAyMU3wyFh2zJsFs/4YseGPA43pTGUyygO9SLrnAmfIYIRQ7zPpY5Yt5dQ== X-Received: by 2002:a81:2f85:: with SMTP id v127mr14425768ywv.1.1550591563109; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 07:52:43 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: std-proposals@isocpp.org Original-Received: by 2002:a0d:d342:: with SMTP id v63ls6483256ywd.4.gmail; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 07:52:41 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a81:8483:: with SMTP id u125mr288238ywf.7.1550591561375; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 07:52:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: wjwray@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:41473 Archived-At: ------=_Part_908_1554217323.1550591560645 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_909_1718410094.1550591560645" ------=_Part_909_1718410094.1550591560645 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" (Trying one more time - previous attempts went to the google groups spam filter) C-array is an atomic aggregate - a pure crystal condensate of one atom type. This thread is to discuss improved language support for C-array via array return. (It is not about addressing std::array shortcomings. It is not an either / or. C-array and std::array are different tools for different tasks.) > The fact that array return is now technically feasible shows how far C++ language specification has risen above its C roots. What was impossible for forty years is now possible. > Raw array is analogous to raw pointer. We've outgrown the urge to wrap all pointers - that's not so smart. Raw pointers have been rehabilitated as the right tool for low level code. Raw arrays deserve to be rehabilitated, with a little language level love. On Monday, February 18, 2019 at 11:33:19 AM UTC-5, Joel Falcou wrote: > > C style arrays must disappear as they have no value over std::array > (Eh? Trollish joke?) C-array is essential to implement std::array - it can't and won't disappear. std::array is a molecular aggregate, an abstract compound > 'compound': make (something bad) worse; intensify the negative aspects of. On Monday, February 18, 2019 at 11:33:19 AM UTC-5, Joel Falcou wrote: > > > On 18/02/2019 17:24, will wray wrote: > > std::array is long in the tooth as an early C++11 demo class. > > Wrong - it's perfectly simple for entry level. Source, I teach C++ since > 10 years and array has never been a problem > C array always have been. > > > > std::array hasn't proved itself as a 'vocabulary' type for API usage - > > spans and ranges supersede and they operate fine with built-in array. > > std:::array is a data owner, nothing comparable to span > > > std::array does not 'roundtrip' the wrapped array type; data() returns > > a pointer. > > And ? > > > std::array is awkward to use for multidimensional arrays. > > Opinion, not fact > > > std::array CTAD guides added for 17 only give 'all or none' deduction > > - you can't provide > > just the type and deduce size - function's deducing built-in array are > > more flexible. > Make a proposal and amend them. > > builtin array are non copiable, are not object etc... > Is the game of give opinions instead of facts done or ? > > C style arrays must disappear as they have no value over std::array > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/65d69c2c-3fa1-40a5-8120-53bfd345ac90%40isocpp.org. ------=_Part_909_1718410094.1550591560645 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
(Trying one more time - previous attempts went to the goog= le groups spam filter)

C-= array is an atomic aggregate - a pure crystal condensate of one atom type.<= /span>

This thread is to discuss improved language support for C-array via arr= ay return.

(It is not about address= ing std::array shortcomings.
=C2=A0It is not an either / or.=C2=A0
=C2=A0C-arr= ay and std::array are different tools for different tasks.)
The= fact that array return is now technically feasible shows how far C++ langu= age
specification has risen above its C roots.
What was impossible for forty years is now possible.
=
Raw array is analogous to raw pointer.
We've outgrown the urge to = wrap all pointers - that's not so smart.
Raw pointers have been reha= bilitated as the right tool for low level code.
Raw arrays deserve to be= rehabilitated, with a little language level love.

On Monday, February = 18, 2019 at 11:33:19 AM UTC-5, Joel Falcou wrote:
C style arra= ys must disappear as they have no value over std::array=C2=A0

(Eh? Trollish joke?)
= C-array is essential to implement std::array - it can't and won't d= isappear.

std::array is a molecular aggregate, an abstract co= mpound
'compound':=C2=A0make (something bad) worse; intensi= fy the negative aspects of.

On Monday, February 18, 2019 at 11:3= 3:19 AM UTC-5, Joel Falcou wrote:

On 18/02/2019 17:24, will wray wrote:
> std::array is long in the tooth as an early C++11 demo class.

Wrong - it's perfectly simple for entry level. Source, I teach C++ = since=20
10 years and array has never been a problem
C array always have been.


> std::array hasn't proved itself as a 'vocabulary' type= for API usage -
> spans and ranges supersede and they operate fine with built-in arr= ay.

std:::array is a data owner, nothing comparable to span

> std::array does not 'roundtrip' the wrapped array type; da= ta() returns=20
> a pointer.

And ?

> std::array is awkward to use for multidimensional arrays.

Opinion, not fact

> std::array CTAD guides added for 17 only give 'all or none'= ; deduction=20
> - you can't provide
> just the type and deduce size - function's deducing built-in a= rray are=20
> more flexible.
Make a proposal and amend them.

builtin array are non copiable, are not object etc...
Is the game of give opinions instead of facts done or ?

C style arrays must disappear as they have no value over std::array

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposa= ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.= com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/65d69c2c-3fa1-40a5-8120-53bfd345ac90= %40isocpp.org.
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