220 40967 article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Brian Bi Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Can we have beginner friendly new line and deprecate std::endl? 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[209.85.220.41]) by mx.google.com with SMTPS id z2-v6sor7381944edp.6.2018.11.11.15.07.43 for (Google Transport Security); Sun, 11 Nov 2018 15:07:43 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of bbi5291@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.41; X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:785:: with SMTP id d5mr2563461edy.81.1541977663094; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 15:07:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7ea647c8-9bfb-4cd9-b55f-4e8b83160451@isocpp.org> X-Original-Sender: bbi5291@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=MPRuehvc; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bbi5291@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bbi5291@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: std-proposals@isocpp.org X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:40967 Archived-At: --000000000000dc4466057a6ba6e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Nov 11, 2018 at 6:01 PM wrote: > > > On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC+2, Jake Arkinstall wrote: >> >> On Sun, 11 Nov 2018, 21:38 Brian Bi > >>> It's only "magic" if you teach beginners that '\n' is a special magic >>> command, rather than the literal representation of the newline character. >>> >> >> This. A thousand times this. >> >> '\n' isn't magic in the same way that '\0' and '\t' aren't magic. They're >> well known representations of special characters, and such ideas have been >> in use in encodings in one form or another for well over a hundred years. >> Avoiding them in any learning setting is fruitless in my opinion and, >> perhaps, gives the opposite of the intended outcome - we replace a "magic" >> that is consistent across dozens of languages with a "magic" command that >> creates a newline. >> > > By no mean I suggest avoiding them altogether. I only point out that > - A beginner will have to be abruptly introduced to special characters in > his first day (in an API that does not used any special characters!) > - It is a glaring API inconsistency on its own > How is it an API inconsistency? The way the API works is that you pass it a character, and it prints that character out. Escape sequences are entirely orthogonal to the API. > > >> >> I agree that endl is badly named, but it's one of those things where >> deprecation (in terms of renaming) would cause a lot of friction. I'd >> sooner just see a better (I.e. more efficient, better compile time support, >> and less verbose - especially the disaster that is stream modifiers, that >> make printf look user friendly) output approach and let std::endl die out - >> not with a bang, but with a whimper. >> > > We all do, but I don't see that coming anytime soon. > > Maybe we could just deprecate endl and advocate using '\n' "until > something better comes along". > This will play nicely with format() as people will get used to adding it > as part of the formating string. > > As mentioned, deprecating it will (hopefully) prevent teaching it. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. > To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/7ea647c8-9bfb-4cd9-b55f-4e8b83160451%40isocpp.org > > . > -- *Brian Bi* -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CAMmfjbPBWa-QQ8c9zxQrzSOWKU83sjEw%2BA-U%3D_%3DffVfSt832Ag%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000dc4466057a6ba6e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Sun= , Nov 11, 2018 at 6:01 PM <m= ihailnajdenov@gmail.com> wrote:


On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UT= C+2, Jake Arkinstall wrote:
On Sun, = 11 Nov 2018, 21:38 Brian Bi <bbi...@gmail.com wr= ote:
It's only "magic" if you teach beginners that = '\n' is a special magic=20 command, rather than the literal representation of the newline=20 character.

=
This. A thousand times this.=C2=A0

'\n' isn't magic in the same way t= hat '\0' and '\t' aren't magic. They're well known = representations of special characters, and such ideas have been in use in e= ncodings in one form or another for well over a hundred years. Avoiding the= m in any learning setting is fruitless in my opinion and, perhaps, gives th= e opposite of the intended outcome - we replace a "magic" that is= consistent across dozens of languages with a "magic" command tha= t creates a newline.

By no mean= I suggest avoiding them altogether. I only point out that
=C2=A0= - A beginner will have to be abruptly introduced to special characters in h= is first day (in an API that does not used any special characters!)
=C2=A0- It is a glaring API inconsistency on its own

How is it an API inconsistency? The way the API wo= rks is that you pass it a character, and it prints that character out. Esca= pe sequences are entirely orthogonal to the API.
=C2=A0
=
=C2=A0

I agree that endl is badly named, but it's one of th= ose things where deprecation (in terms of renaming) would cause a lot of fr= iction. I'd sooner just see a better (I.e. more efficient, better compi= le time support, and less verbose - especially the disaster that is stream = modifiers, that make printf look user friendly) output approach and let std= ::endl die out - not with a bang, but with a whimper.

We all do, but I don't see that coming anytime s= oon.=C2=A0

Maybe we could just deprecate endl and = advocate using '\n' "until something better comes along".=
This will play nicely with format() as people will get used to a= dding it as part of the formating string.=C2=A0

As= mentioned, deprecating it will (hopefully) prevent teaching it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit = https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/7ea647c8-9bfb-= 4cd9-b55f-4e8b83160451%40isocpp.org.


--
Brian Bi

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposa= ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CAMmfjbPBWa= -QQ8c9zxQrzSOWKU83sjEw%2BA-U%3D_%3DffVfSt832Ag%40mail.gmail.com.
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