220 40966 <7ea647c8-9bfb-4cd9-b55f-4e8b83160451@isocpp.org> article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: mihailnajdenov@gmail.com Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Can we have beginner friendly new line and deprecate std::endl? Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 15:01:33 -0800 (PST) Lines: 127 Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: <7ea647c8-9bfb-4cd9-b55f-4e8b83160451@isocpp.org> References: <7da1f33f-c2c1-482f-8fc2-c23a9767a5ec@isocpp.org> Reply-To: std-proposals@isocpp.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1671_639710727.1541977293548" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1541977172 1200 195.159.176.226 (11 Nov 2018 22:59:32 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 22:59:32 +0000 (UTC) To: ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals Original-X-From: std-proposals+bncBCUJ3A7GRAPRBTXJULPQKGQER6P7LYY@isocpp.org Sun Nov 11 23:59:27 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-yw1-f69.google.com ([209.85.161.69]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gLyhR-00007u-7k for gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 23:59:25 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-yw1-f69.google.com with SMTP id g82-v6sf1092865ywe.22 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 15:01:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isocpp-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=yGTE6nkpki67HTq9Xf4WFYXi7CHqQHk0t7d0pvsk56I=; b=jcpjw4RmDqjwzUMG0aJCk1Fh3K96awsV7vX57BorskxpmDNERO9wUM6DgeqZG6kLbG /qU5lEkIXBZaETTNsht+Z9gCdaZYXti4GCncIWyXU5k4qAzYW5MzObQN2URs5youCxoQ wgbUpV5Zxfh3dyrrtoXjPvLHlb2YJDTeKDfLaPlHXFBdxOvl7JIm5FAQYyVj6x/P67df Tqjdf5X3ysbxc8umXuZ2P+YHDk+53KYB5WDm1V7T+2vU5CIMUZqg5QA74bbgjnIqyMYA pxPuU5W/tV5cwr69cLlTK6PJ5wzRoI9GFFqVvyuBjUMkzgfMlCDS9ItbzG6BHr3TKpv7 GkXw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=yGTE6nkpki67HTq9Xf4WFYXi7CHqQHk0t7d0pvsk56I=; b=ZA8knhKY4pxGWWL1ZAEanTrGrjCMNGBJ7+MvI00ik2DJPjrHZ//MfM2POZfurhV7WJ 1m2M9ZHmJT1RT+jJZY7VRkavXo29Yh2r0sKpU21P/yOu3i3ohdTb96c/KJMcKmfSjseM mR4bhQ9stU/GCvdVVOK+n6E5pf5GytT8sKO56HSiCG/tEuDRGx1bWRQtwaMtut3ebHPU osbpOmBqugMbWeLrHDGEjuQH+0CH0iuN5VMjXfGtul09mJ8ldAg8hmXjoNtcVZXwvVx9 pbxin7DM/nXKELkcD6yE1Bo/JJ+NvvHIAO3Azi5Jooh1Wj8gg9ec+OKw0A1jQcdkZhq9 QmkQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=yGTE6nkpki67HTq9Xf4WFYXi7CHqQHk0t7d0pvsk56I=; b=G98qnPMvFV9/F19Z5OuhreKjjWTQWYXypyKujMtcvTOwuB7CTmq8RWswe63LGI/C0r CLiYADeeOHjO1kvhDRYArGNl1u01yIHivz/CwOmOhZWjOsxq9MPZRSY0l0zgkRmGTq6M fUHetnvCMUkgav/dDGTe4pWuwlC4VGAu1TmrPXPP5V0RCDiTjTXc4W7O1siGNnXX603J SrMQxGs4mcdtpHuuNGWNiz6Th59SlmoSSVNTswC/eu2MfV7ZF3cVKUKx/HQEeCS7RT4B pZS7OhQkf+QF7ErmEWlRUSwNYDapKfY9xXxootoOyOif9i5iRndo5TNJWhoPw+L4iQR/ y/0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLBgTBIoRsWYt/Q8MEJ6n1sPDw4F1fLW77vfz9o8ZyBXZWHDzfv YEAfMlz13k5QMjjNMW3oGYPHCA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5e9ZjiwQzJBWL25NkscMMh4igpW2I7yKqcUSUxZBfYEQ8ZmI9fmU1m3+yZbssR1FuZznBRYzw== X-Received: by 2002:a25:d2d5:: with SMTP id j204-v6mr9093431ybg.46.1541977295355; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 15:01:35 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: std-proposals@isocpp.org Original-Received: by 2002:a81:3d45:: with SMTP id k66-v6ls3504366ywa.11.gmail; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 15:01:34 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a81:83d2:: with SMTP id t201-v6mr58030ywf.6.1541977294198; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 15:01:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: MihailNajdenov@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: std-proposals@isocpp.org X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:40966 Archived-At: ------=_Part_1671_639710727.1541977293548 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1672_75946876.1541977293548" ------=_Part_1672_75946876.1541977293548 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC+2, Jake Arkinstall wrote: > > On Sun, 11 Nov 2018, 21:38 Brian Bi wrote: > >> It's only "magic" if you teach beginners that '\n' is a special magic >> command, rather than the literal representation of the newline character. >> > > This. A thousand times this. > > '\n' isn't magic in the same way that '\0' and '\t' aren't magic. They're > well known representations of special characters, and such ideas have been > in use in encodings in one form or another for well over a hundred years. > Avoiding them in any learning setting is fruitless in my opinion and, > perhaps, gives the opposite of the intended outcome - we replace a "magic" > that is consistent across dozens of languages with a "magic" command that > creates a newline. > By no mean I suggest avoiding them altogether. I only point out that - A beginner will have to be abruptly introduced to special characters in his first day (in an API that does not used any special characters!) - It is a glaring API inconsistency on its own > > I agree that endl is badly named, but it's one of those things where > deprecation (in terms of renaming) would cause a lot of friction. I'd > sooner just see a better (I.e. more efficient, better compile time support, > and less verbose - especially the disaster that is stream modifiers, that > make printf look user friendly) output approach and let std::endl die out - > not with a bang, but with a whimper. > We all do, but I don't see that coming anytime soon. Maybe we could just deprecate endl and advocate using '\n' "until something better comes along". This will play nicely with format() as people will get used to adding it as part of the formating string. As mentioned, deprecating it will (hopefully) prevent teaching it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/7ea647c8-9bfb-4cd9-b55f-4e8b83160451%40isocpp.org. ------=_Part_1672_75946876.1541977293548 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC+2,= Jake Arkinstall wrote:
On Sun,= 11 Nov 2018, 21:38 Brian Bi <bbi...@gmail.com wrote:
It's = only "magic" if you teach beginners that '\n' is a specia= l magic=20 command, rather than the literal representation of the newline=20 character.

=
This. A thousand times this.=C2=A0

'\n' isn't magic in the same way t= hat '\0' and '\t' aren't magic. They're well known = representations of special characters, and such ideas have been in use in e= ncodings in one form or another for well over a hundred years. Avoiding the= m in any learning setting is fruitless in my opinion and, perhaps, gives th= e opposite of the intended outcome - we replace a "magic" that is= consistent across dozens of languages with a "magic" command tha= t creates a newline.

By no mean= I suggest avoiding them altogether. I only point out that
=C2=A0= - A beginner will have to be abruptly introduced to special characters in h= is first day (in an API that does not used any special characters!)
=C2=A0- It is a glaring API inconsistency on its own
=C2=A0

I agree that endl is badly named, but= it's one of those things where deprecation (in terms of renaming) woul= d cause a lot of friction. I'd sooner just see a better (I.e. more effi= cient, better compile time support, and less verbose - especially the disas= ter that is stream modifiers, that make printf look user friendly) output a= pproach and let std::endl die out - not with a bang, but with a whimper.

We all do, but I don't see th= at coming anytime soon.=C2=A0

Maybe we could just = deprecate endl and advocate using '\n' "until something better= comes along".
This will play nicely with format() as people= will get used to adding it as part of the formating string.=C2=A0

As mentioned, deprecating it will (hopefully) prevent teac= hing it.=C2=A0

=C2=A0

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To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.= com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/7ea647c8-9bfb-4cd9-b55f-4e8b83160451= %40isocpp.org.
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