220 40964 article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Jake Arkinstall Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Can we have beginner friendly new line and deprecate std::endl? Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 22:26:01 +0000 Lines: 83 Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: References: <7da1f33f-c2c1-482f-8fc2-c23a9767a5ec@isocpp.org> Reply-To: std-proposals@isocpp.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006684eb057a6b1290" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1541975050 12170 195.159.176.226 (11 Nov 2018 22:24:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2018 22:24:10 +0000 (UTC) To: std-proposals@isocpp.org Original-X-From: std-proposals+bncBDCZX3WUUQFRBBOZULPQKGQE22M2UTI@isocpp.org Sun Nov 11 23:24:06 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-it1-f200.google.com ([209.85.166.200]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gLy9E-000325-SN for gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 23:24:05 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-it1-f200.google.com with SMTP id o204-v6sf7776632itg.0 for ; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 14:26:14 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1541975174; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=fPuJ0JP2TMVTqfMMIU82FknvWd7in4dS2ejCO3TIRB5RrAcWZWVSyTqXR/59gXOcwL LCpBt7rZvoeDCKCZ79Tp5tGoxsUdKk7eZ3QghYxF+FFXbcfEOrTcLiTeI4wK1UHSTPGB PoIJ7iz0MNr8g7qa9D2d3tF3Na1i0v/ArUbJoBzRdapU8Mu/4VlCk+b5JCUFB8OZjpG7 5rpcz/gxedvXwviPPRowZrhqzf64ssaVz9eH6bFQ+FCcQEb+OUNScLkJottQ8h5ddSi2 4iodYJkSUDJaQgDU75v82vsqqctI23l4MQDz65pkxgYVphsNcsr9tLv65Bn57jP2MoSJ RyXg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to:to:subject:message-id:date :from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:dkim-signature; bh=TeKsGC27rR9RK5pQFxP2vzaXGhdqyfWDMOvYze5JCo8=; b=EfOVMEI83Cg5pQL6G1befB0U2JbiaG+OYZ8V6aCN5ElRGHOK46GbsvcZ6UuRD3Wg35 MUtBL8Fmus6Nbj8U6HEMo9LkUgqm6Y/7GtCn2rcbYMN/UE3OLlhS2hM2YRMrsQyT0/qe HDZKbKh/K4PZBHbqEPPO6Y9RjdSnfgYS+dUBVfyiltlAk8NeRbi7RjE9vLZ8vnGeJSkL u0N09r8QOICd8BLs0UACw2C3WHWTY9rx2p5+os/jJaR7jgh1Q+QdQd4E18K6pKAKghna QxeW5FPLg56dxELIyOUDwckRKBHL5cum/1DcjisGwaQj9UJ4kfB3AsF7OTg/bfYcgx7O BVYQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=d5mSNDGO; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jake.arkinstall@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jake.arkinstall@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isocpp-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=TeKsGC27rR9RK5pQFxP2vzaXGhdqyfWDMOvYze5JCo8=; b=notb/V1BvWywt4LYzuQBq8NL6RZHRS44hM/ykd4HcbH6UWHEU92TswFR5icmNTvoCO u+Yg+30sCKmr44u1OpAWFsjfuvf1zePMgthr5JzLYHe+pEJkVhABLWsLmlsrsdJZcUhR UEaO9gUe9B1Bh+O14IP5TxPsli7tRBOR0CLfb7pARF71PauGXF3lNxF9h1Ely3leVDk5 B4rcgwesDg28apYLqZf6kAZAw9EtkhSyDNfyFk/0xbUtPL7R+yt56ZuFY1ZUGCkuxtWe Ttw9f+RQ1XFoWqFw6CdjwXJLFglI3f7QzKyF/kp8x7DakEd8J3vJ3m5osbq65vkWdhso qy6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=TeKsGC27rR9RK5pQFxP2vzaXGhdqyfWDMOvYze5JCo8=; b=V5WqVKYo1/W/ZI0YzbZuYB6cPemMBGKzCS5QuPBFPO8iW7ufXiMI67BHGrP6EOBKK7 0KQ5/yReoLWmBhjxSHtEMQc/oLTSAJ0GGhtQ5vLNUQ4eP4Y8qKxm9DTFN6T/gzVlW2rt J51eKexCbTUFrwkoBy+K6rY/N/FCcVLpd2KqUCvD5JTYDPxo9IS2/1qhDlB4gY6QoFBq F7WlhytjFie1a0/zQIXlqeKgo7j6uCF+f2fHi77yaDB12JchnZvVkSIwBmbdPNZEZusE xwu9mjWoELfWACiufqpLrSIq2vEeueukuDgKadQBAx1fimYex/bpaMwcrs3jGjVi0O6t yKPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gLyxtsGFGpMz1ZVbdi52fTaKIy+wx59R5ynjFYECgwZ6CY16sMj +BWG/w4dnNoI/dYgKbQu89ZA2A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5ecCuh9ba4wMMByvZYng3KU+khfHhJIsNNKOI9TRbAOupDLRSkFWUK9Aqh4ycXOZTbL717YsA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:660c:70b:: with SMTP id l11mr8772914itk.5.1541975173982; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 14:26:13 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: std-proposals@isocpp.org Original-Received: by 2002:a5e:8917:: with SMTP id k23-v6ls2451757ioj.4.gmail; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 14:26:12 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a6b:8c81:: with SMTP id o123mr1341162iod.102.1541975172853; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 14:26:12 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1541975172; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=zjrNUfLX3nLnXb+As8Y/pBemtXS/dbZyjlxGotpaAGLhkCt9vdHuugExi4tw8/zgFI tchaBccmPOdCGSSdHaShy9SOD9kUzILY7gv5TxC3/F/PyofIwqYd3ihyT/VEACa5nKkQ K6gL0P2rjI7iO8ELAc4tBAwp5/+7E9LlnmVX1R4D1nMEXEjA7GZM0ABiyjAvFV9EnMjW YM9LrYktEXsBnBum3UjL6CFtmA7eHaYtoFetVa8Fss1ZyWA5oboxiekijFVIQ7Ry83G1 cIzcok6xkcQ3dgxF4izN2FDhar/zW82c7J4pkrfnn/T3gLNwHqUPmZpnlnmr2EMCwsuO XCWg== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :dkim-signature; bh=ZZa/ck4aLIRF+teMU5zwhRa3ViMrMeXZagzzKVlV8fU=; b=P4DzJFyvZHX3BxpnZdyA8TXS8Lrsz1g4k1OBkAoqQ+CEH5jI/POoePvhYD2SUDSRLc CKmZppmorM/8UkKOeKhEh0Lk8ESmN2lRD4EWYvkPQHaKU9tJhZ3wCjj4D9r2t7QYH5+W ozO5feGLj0rY4LEbXFnHk+5J4UA8fzOWaO+w66bk2vQr1D2X2iLq8rGKK7cdm2DksgH8 AhGqRNf4SamwKYyeFXpL92VgGVr/OBdgtoFeLZOjOhkrIR3alONxdtu2AV4XOe3UgBp/ 7/5+3qKWMe4ixAYmPg1nK65GqaCj2+c4pUMQnHOJAb6dqeW2fC2N1h5KNJdaJfftkNlm Jduw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=d5mSNDGO; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jake.arkinstall@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jake.arkinstall@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Original-Received: from mail-sor-f41.google.com (mail-sor-f41.google.com. [209.85.220.41]) by mx.google.com with SMTPS id s22-v6sor6490692iog.44.2018.11.11.14.26.12 for (Google Transport Security); Sun, 11 Nov 2018 14:26:12 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jake.arkinstall@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.41; X-Received: by 2002:a6b:b750:: with SMTP id h77-v6mr13714194iof.59.1541975172349; Sun, 11 Nov 2018 14:26:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: jake.arkinstall@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=d5mSNDGO; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jake.arkinstall@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jake.arkinstall@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: std-proposals@isocpp.org X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:40964 Archived-At: --0000000000006684eb057a6b1290 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, 11 Nov 2018, 21:38 Brian Bi It's only "magic" if you teach beginners that '\n' is a special magic > command, rather than the literal representation of the newline character. > This. A thousand times this. '\n' isn't magic in the same way that '\0' and '\t' aren't magic. They're well known representations of special characters, and such ideas have been in use in encodings in one form or another for well over a hundred years. Avoiding them in any learning setting is fruitless in my opinion and, perhaps, gives the opposite of the intended outcome - we replace a "magic" that is consistent across dozens of languages with a "magic" command that creates a newline. I agree that endl is badly named, but it's one of those things where deprecation (in terms of renaming) would cause a lot of friction. I'd sooner just see a better (I.e. more efficient, better compile time support, and less verbose - especially the disaster that is stream modifiers, that make printf look user friendly) output approach and let std::endl die out - not with a bang, but with a whimper. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CAC%2B0CCOudOQQYextom6SH8AvuK%2B4cPtbVaGNmNojkd%2BPFsEQcQ%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000006684eb057a6b1290 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
= On Sun, 11 Nov 2018, 21:38 Brian Bi <bbi5291@gmail.com wrote:
It's only "magic" if= you teach beginners that '\n' is a special magic=20 command, rather than the literal representation of the newline=20 character.

=
This. A thousand times this.=C2=A0

'\n' isn't magic in the same way t= hat '\0' and '\t' aren't magic. They're well known = representations of special characters, and such ideas have been in use in e= ncodings in one form or another for well over a hundred years. Avoiding the= m in any learning setting is fruitless in my opinion and, perhaps, gives th= e opposite of the intended outcome - we replace a "magic" that is= consistent across dozens of languages with a "magic" command tha= t creates a newline.

I a= gree that endl is badly named, but it's one of those things where depre= cation (in terms of renaming) would cause a lot of friction. I'd sooner= just see a better (I.e. more efficient, better compile time support, and l= ess verbose - especially the disaster that is stream modifiers, that make p= rintf look user friendly) output approach and let std::endl die out - not w= ith a bang, but with a whimper.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposa= ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CAC%2B0CCOu= dOQQYextom6SH8AvuK%2B4cPtbVaGNmNojkd%2BPFsEQcQ%40mail.gmail.com.
--0000000000006684eb057a6b1290-- .