220 40941 article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Nicolas Lesser Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Can we have beginner friendly new line and deprecate std::endl? Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 09:04:49 -0800 Lines: 395 Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: References: <7da1f33f-c2c1-482f-8fc2-c23a9767a5ec@isocpp.org> Reply-To: std-proposals@isocpp.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000db2c34057a5277ce" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1541869376 8977 195.159.176.226 (10 Nov 2018 17:02:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2018 17:02:56 +0000 (UTC) To: std-proposals@isocpp.org Original-X-From: std-proposals+bncBDXKNLEUTADRBPM7TTPQKGQEDYS4O2Q@isocpp.org Sat Nov 10 18:02:52 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-oi1-f198.google.com ([209.85.167.198]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gLWeq-000299-6X for gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 18:02:52 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-oi1-f198.google.com with SMTP id a188-v6sf2962725oih.0 for ; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 09:05:02 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=2; 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[209.85.220.41]) by mx.google.com with SMTPS id e14sor6541911otk.75.2018.11.10.09.05.00 for (Google Transport Security); Sat, 10 Nov 2018 09:05:00 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blitzrakete@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.41; X-Received: by 2002:a9d:4333:: with SMTP id s48mr7718763ote.347.1541869500311; Sat, 10 Nov 2018 09:05:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: blitzrakete@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=GdQwM8+X; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blitzrakete@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=blitzrakete@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: std-proposals@isocpp.org X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:40941 Archived-At: --000000000000db2c34057a5277ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 9:02 AM > > On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 5:28:37 PM UTC+2, Nicolas Lesser wrote: >> >> You're going to have a hard time because the committee doesn't like >> iostreams and plans on replacing them with something else. >> > > Are there any proposals in flight? I see Text Formating > , > but it does not include I/O (AFAICT) > I don't actually know. It's just what I've been hearing. Don't know how accurate that is though... > > >> >> And I don't really see a problem with \n. Sure, it's a bit old-school, >> but it's clear and almost every language uses it. If you're programming >> you'll going to have to learn \n eventually. >> >> On Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 7:24 AM > >>> >>> >>> On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 6:50:59 PM UTC+2, Brian Bi wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 3:19 AM wrote: >>>> >>>>> There are multiple problems with '\n' >>>>> >>>>> First - it is ultimately C ("way") >>>>> >>>> This mailing list is about C++, not Java, Rust, Swift, etc. >>>> This is not an argument. >>>> >>> >>> There is some sort of miscommunication. >>> The fact there no C++ way to insert a new line (only a UNIX special >>> character way) is what I state an issue, >>> considering the rest of the API >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Second, when we introduce simple output to beginners, for which cout is >>>>> actually good because of overloading, >>>>> when using '\n' we have to introduce additional topics >>>>> - the fact a char can be more the one, well, character >>>>> - special magic characters >>>>> We also create asymmetry b/w what is used to start the output >>>>> std::cout (an object), to modify it (hex) and what is used to end it >>>>> ("magic"). >>>>> >>>> >>> >>>> What do you mean, "what is used to end it"? A semicolon? >>>> >>> >>> std::cout //< start >>> << 12.f >>> << ' ' >>> << std::hex //< modify >>> << 255 >>> << '\n'; //< finish (magic) >>> >>> Note that printf (and other languages) already use special characters to >>> modify the output, so having an '\n' is not abrupt. >>> >>> But C++ streams are different, having to spell out a special character >>> is odd and unintuitive for a beginner and a design deficiency in general. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> This screams some design flaw - we should be able to insert a new >>>>> lines the same way we modify the stream! >>>>> >>>> Yes, the way to do that is with '\n'. >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On its own std::endl has the flaw that it does not obey the "do one >>>>> thing" rule. >>>>> Once we deprecate it, this will shut down all the naive >>>>> tutorials/courses still teaching it as the default! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> As for std::newline, we have options - >>>>> >>>>> std::nl //< even a beginner can "read" it >>>>> std::newl //< orthogonal to endl >>>>> std::br //< why not at this point! >>>>> std::brl >>>>> std::bl >>>>> >>>>> Geeks can still use `\n`, but a beginner (and a teacher) will have a >>>>> simple, *correct, *go-to option that models the syntax already >>>>> introduced (std::cout)! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 8:22:26 AM UTC+2, PeterSommerlad wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> So the better way is do better teaching. I show my students that they >>>>>> should not use endl, except when they need it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from Peter Sommerlad's iPad >>>>>> +41 79 432 23 32 >>>>>> >>>>>> On 8 Nov 2018, at 23:43, Hyman Rosen wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 5:08 PM Brian Bi wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the reason why novices use std::endl is that they're under >>>>>>> the impression (no doubt perpetuated by incompetent educators) that >>>>>>> std::endl is portable whereas '\n' isn't. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I think novices use std::endl because that's how C++ formatted I/O >>>>>> was presented for ages. I have the feeling, completely unsupported >>>>>> by evidence, that the iostreams designers thought manipulators were >>>>>> really keen, and wanted to have one that would always get used. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to std-proposal...@isocpp.org. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to std-pr...@isocpp.org. >>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CAHSYqdYYZjeHHbRZ5bcHLYVsWfspwCeQ8oxEDRbuJ8dqAtsX5A%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to std-proposal...@isocpp.org. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to std-pr...@isocpp.org. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/b49f4c85-816b-4b35-851d-407061a8ef9f%40isocpp.org >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> *Brian Bi* >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to std-proposal...@isocpp.org. >>> To post to this group, send email to std-pr...@isocpp.org. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/7da1f33f-c2c1-482f-8fc2-c23a9767a5ec%40isocpp.org >>> >>> . >>> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. > To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/f7bd155a-bcbf-49f0-ac34-f0628ccf50e1%40isocpp.org > > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CALmDwq1jR7r2m6fFVVDMzjwDkfptcDN6bZF8mr9z%2BkYcteLaNA%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000db2c34057a5277ce Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


= On Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 9:02 AM <mihailnajdenov@gmail.com wrote:


On Saturday, November 10, 2018 at 5:28:37 PM = UTC+2, Nicolas Lesser wrote:
You're going to have a hard time because the committee doesn= 't like iostreams and plans on replacing them with something else.

Are there any proposals in flight? I see = Text Formating=C2=A0, but it= does not include I/O (AFAICT)=C2=A0

I don't actually know. It&#= 39;s just what I've been hearing. Don't know how accurate that is t= hough...=C2=A0
=C2=A0

And I don't really see a problem with \n. Sure, it's a bi= t old-school, but it's clear and almost every language uses it. If you&= #39;re programming you'll going to have to learn \n eventually.

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018, 7= :24 AM <mihailn...@gmail.com wrote:<= br>


On Friday,= November 9, 2018 at 6:50:59 PM UTC+2, Brian Bi wrote:


On Fri, Nov 9, 2018 at 3:19 AM <mihailn...@gmail.com> wrote:
There are multiple problems with '\n&#= 39;

First - it is ultimately C ("way")
This mailing list is about C++, not Java, Rust, Swift= , etc.
This is not an argument.

There is some sort of miscommunication.=C2=A0
Th= e fact there no C++ way to insert a new line (only a UNIX special character= way) is what I state an issue,=C2=A0
considering the rest of the= API=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Second, when we introduce simple output= to beginners, for which cout is actually good because of overloading,
when using '\n' we have to introduce additional topics=C2=A0<= br>
=C2=A0- the fact a char can be more the one, well, character
<= div>=C2=A0- special magic characters
We also create asymmetry b/w= what is used to start the output std::cout (an object), to modify it (hex)= and what is used to end it ("magic").
=C2=A0
What do you mea= n, "what is used to end it"? A semicolon?

std::= cout=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0//< start=C2=A0
=C2=A0 << 12.f=C2=A0
=C2=A0 << ' '=C2=A0
=C2=A0 << std::hex //<= modify
=C2=A0 <&= lt; 255
=C2=A0 <&= lt; '\n';=C2=A0 =C2=A0 //< finish (magic)=C2=A0

Note that printf (and other languages) already use sp= ecial characters to modify the output, so having an '\n' is not abr= upt.

But C++ streams are different, having to spel= l out a special character is odd and unintuitive for a beginner and a desig= n deficiency in general.=C2=A0=C2=A0


=C2=A0

This screams some design flaw - we should be able to i= nsert a new lines the same way we modify the stream!
Yes, the way to do that is with '\n'.
=C2=A0=

<= div>On its own std::endl has the flaw that it does not obey the "do on= e thing" rule.
Once we deprecate it, this will shut down all= the naive tutorials/courses still teaching it as the default!=C2=A0
<= div>

As for std::newline, we have options -=C2= =A0

std::nl = //< even a beginner can "read" it
std::newl //< orthogonal to endl
std::br //< why not at this = point!
std::brl
std::bl

Geeks can still use `\n`, but a beginner (and a teacher) wi= ll have a simple, correct,=C2=A0go-to option that models the syntax = already introduced (std::cout)!


On Friday, November 9, 20= 18 at 8:22:26 AM UTC+2, PeterSommerlad wrote:
So the better way is do better teaching. I show= my students that they should not use endl, except when they need it.
Sent from Peter Sommerlad's=C2=A0iPad+41 79 432 23 32

On 8 Nov 2= 018, at 23:43, Hyman Rosen <hy= man...@gmail.com> wrote:

O= n Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 5:08 PM Brian Bi <bbi...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think the reason why = novices use std::endl is that they're under the impression (no doubt pe= rpetuated by incompetent educators) that std::endl is portable whereas '= ;\n' isn't.

I think novices = use std::endl because that's how C++ formatted I/O
was presented for= ages.=C2=A0 I have the feeling, completely unsupported
by evidence, tha= t the iostreams designers thought manipulators were
really keen, and wan= ted to have one that would always get used.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposal...@isocpp.or= g.
To post to this group, send email to std-pr...@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/= isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CAHSYqdYYZjeHHbRZ5bcHLYVsWfspwCeQ8oxEDRbuJ= 8dqAtsX5A%40mail.gmail.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
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--
Brian Bi=

--
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