220 40935 article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: mihailnajdenov@gmail.com Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Can we have beginner friendly new line and deprecate std::endl? Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 01:19:04 -0800 (PST) Lines: 184 Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: References: Reply-To: std-proposals@isocpp.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_831_1553175585.1541755144847" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1541755021 25204 195.159.176.226 (9 Nov 2018 09:17:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 09:17:01 +0000 (UTC) To: ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals Original-X-From: std-proposals+bncBCUJ3A7GRAPRBCNCSXPQKGQE7T3IQYA@isocpp.org Fri Nov 09 10:16:57 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-yb1-f200.google.com ([209.85.219.200]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gL2uO-0006QV-Qf for gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 10:16:57 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-f200.google.com with SMTP id x12-v6sf2053455ybp.9 for ; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 01:19:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isocpp-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=14xHi5yFu6/QwpTtym/3uvgQ3Q1sHY24bqs+1eD5BJ8=; b=uH9dJYbHoKQHJ7VEla601ujGPHCUW2WJhFgZ4GMZ2SPw2Cw6W+f+LZDGrt7guq5f9i OZFNjnaStU8UFqOHmCrqfBj4um26zUVPtwuzcbiD7AWfAxriH6Ezmt06zD2LTajLXA3b ZqAhBg07Bp8wzDSaIwalTrKeWnjZMHyxVQfQ0RDZuvI+im835Fy/raPGMGDBSONvZmDT 8Xmi8SOERpBXoi00tP5aFOYcx/1EV0vfdHt1lwujEapaMw+YvcOLe3DrL65K/xmUkUhK vgmpxR+RJw8BQydVUeW7rgrbWlvlH51c0x86wyizWWP6ofFDw1kVvUGTYqwlOi/Rl8ko ODVA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=14xHi5yFu6/QwpTtym/3uvgQ3Q1sHY24bqs+1eD5BJ8=; b=W0/toiUt61SYsdfe0GA0VxmI81cdFKqNJHilPAfnE4s1gQ6v05b3Mz0bWcrV6C2PIQ TFEJJbZHxnnXNLzrUWQ8zXxTPyiY1FJmskSmYK80vTgBlV6Wy4BAx6aQiVXEplfWoGSY HIUDDCKuVOEMZoOsrAvVqx0WLVXWA20FAuAnd53L3mAMtrmlg6eStTtwSAU7M3QSmH5N vDZor3qBPpb5OCbz0NLWjvZ3a69NrgdS7fSt+Z3FYZfxYJZds2LrX90RdN8OHXK27Tob +1wpi0k7llLQQv2Wd1Pi22uhKSNwEOkpJfy5C7+PgGxtFTtaKDAoTzij7sOoAE76Z0+A zt3g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=14xHi5yFu6/QwpTtym/3uvgQ3Q1sHY24bqs+1eD5BJ8=; b=pRClSlBEpAGvwpPABno1DNum+8Jyp06bCV1vdxO2JGHNfg5eMmVTYUR1xE9jwMptzv CbZn/ntESHarQZEhIe0azhGZHRkd0mFtRWu3TNpybwECh2wJS6P7zAzzIQzKDxXj/uPp E7+FX3Xqn1Wx7MPuZP+tIPUt2rhYNn2RKXtF0dQeol8aMbzRrsF9IY073AFYr9wtiZlv xx77bpdDqlZOmUgUrNGePosT7prfF8mI2JBUzvk6RxJy31s0IQEI2y2EL32YnU1/Llk1 dUylqjb6TN8no2mjKY8rZ4QjuVW8kzTarpZjM1M9ccGl5e7ohxcGvx2k8svAarr7nbf8 Fp+Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gI/ufra5Vj6luQMNPHeuwLmzsfYiGx87gcLgiu6uwKR7BkJrbQC 8IxMQTcEtC4m+yPGTZ4a/sDBdQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5fXewAaYzmm6iooy3pW+eYH2gy6WUnp/0T5aWOG9Wg/l7aIU4Bh6aeoo2srlUL/DkKFvD9F1g== X-Received: by 2002:a81:68d5:: with SMTP id d204-v6mr3981889ywc.8.1541755146824; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 01:19:06 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: std-proposals@isocpp.org Original-Received: by 2002:a81:150:: with SMTP id 77-v6ls589970ywb.6.gmail; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 01:19:05 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a0d:d703:: with SMTP id z3-v6mr100756ywd.7.1541755145514; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 01:19:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: MihailNajdenov@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: std-proposals@isocpp.org X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:40935 Archived-At: ------=_Part_831_1553175585.1541755144847 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_832_1870195055.1541755144848" ------=_Part_832_1870195055.1541755144848 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" There are multiple problems with '\n' First - it is ultimately C ("way") Second, when we introduce simple output to beginners, for which cout is actually good because of overloading, when using '\n' we have to introduce additional topics - the fact a char can be more the one, well, character - special magic characters We also create asymmetry b/w what is used to start the output std::cout (an object), to modify it (hex) and what is used to end it ("magic"). This screams some design flaw - we should be able to insert a new lines the same way we modify the stream! On its own std::endl has the flaw that it does not obey the "do one thing" rule. Once we deprecate it, this will shut down all the naive tutorials/courses still teaching it as the default! As for std::newline, we have options - std::nl //< even a beginner can "read" it std::newl //< orthogonal to endl std::br //< why not at this point! std::brl std::bl Geeks can still use `\n`, but a beginner (and a teacher) will have a simple, *correct, *go-to option that models the syntax already introduced (std::cout)! On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 8:22:26 AM UTC+2, PeterSommerlad wrote: > > So the better way is do better teaching. I show my students that they > should not use endl, except when they need it. > > Sent from Peter Sommerlad's iPad > +41 79 432 23 32 > > On 8 Nov 2018, at 23:43, Hyman Rosen > > wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 5:08 PM Brian Bi > > wrote: > >> I think the reason why novices use std::endl is that they're under the >> impression (no doubt perpetuated by incompetent educators) that std::endl >> is portable whereas '\n' isn't. >> > > I think novices use std::endl because that's how C++ formatted I/O > was presented for ages. I have the feeling, completely unsupported > by evidence, that the iostreams designers thought manipulators were > really keen, and wanted to have one that would always get used. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to std-proposal...@isocpp.org . > To post to this group, send email to std-pr...@isocpp.org . > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CAHSYqdYYZjeHHbRZ5bcHLYVsWfspwCeQ8oxEDRbuJ8dqAtsX5A%40mail.gmail.com > > . > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/b49f4c85-816b-4b35-851d-407061a8ef9f%40isocpp.org. ------=_Part_832_1870195055.1541755144848 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There are multiple problems with '\n'

First - it is ultimately C ("way")
Second, when = we introduce simple output to beginners, for which cout is actually good be= cause of overloading,
when using '\n' we have to introduc= e additional topics=C2=A0
=C2=A0- the fact a char can be more the o= ne, well, character
=C2=A0- special magic characters
We= also create asymmetry b/w what is used to start the output std::cout (an o= bject), to modify it (hex) and what is used to end it ("magic").<= /div>

This screams some design flaw - we should be able = to insert a new lines the same way we modify the stream!

On its own std::endl has the flaw that it does not obey the "do= one thing" rule.
Once we deprecate it, this will shut down = all the naive tutorials/courses still teaching it as the default!=C2=A0


As for std::newline, we have options -= =C2=A0

std::= nl //< even a beginner can "read" it
std::newl //< orthogonal to endl
std::br //< why not at thi= s point!
std::brl
std::bl

Geeks can still use `\n`, but a beginner (and a teacher) = will have a simple, correct,=C2=A0go-to option that models the synta= x already introduced (std::cout)!


On Friday, November 9, = 2018 at 8:22:26 AM UTC+2, PeterSommerlad wrote:
So the better way is do better teaching.= I show my students that they should not use endl, except when they need it= ..

Sent from Peter Sommerlad's=C2=A0iPad
+41 79 432 23 32

On = 8 Nov 2018, at 23:43, Hyman Rosen <hyman...@gmail.com> wrote:

<= /div>
On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 5:08 PM Brian Bi &= lt;bb= i...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think the reason why novices use= std::endl is that they're under the impression (no doubt perpetuated b= y incompetent educators) that std::endl is portable whereas '\n' is= n't.

I think novices use std::en= dl because that's how C++ formatted I/O
was presented for ages.=C2= =A0 I have the feeling, completely unsupported
by evidence, that the ios= treams designers thought manipulators were
really keen, and wanted to ha= ve one that would always get used.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposal...@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-pr...@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org= /d/msgid/std-proposals/CAHSYqdYYZjeHHbRZ5bcHLYVsWfspwCeQ8oxE= DRbuJ8dqAtsX5A%40mail.gmail.com.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposa= ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.= com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/b49f4c85-816b-4b35-851d-407061a8ef9f= %40isocpp.org.
------=_Part_832_1870195055.1541755144848-- ------=_Part_831_1553175585.1541755144847-- .