220 40933 article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: W Brown Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Can we have beginner friendly new line and deprecate std::endl? 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[209.85.220.41]) by mx.google.com with SMTPS id l15-v6sor7289678pfb.67.2018.11.08.16.33.31 for (Google Transport Security); Thu, 08 Nov 2018 16:33:31 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of webrown.cpp@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.41; X-Received: by 2002:a62:3a8c:: with SMTP id v12-v6mr6695727pfj.118.1541723610548; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 16:33:30 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from [10.46.122.221] ([65.50.242.2]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o27-v6sm10330495pfk.85.2018.11.08.16.33.29 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 08 Nov 2018 16:33:29 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1990.1) X-Original-Sender: webrown.cpp@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=NbjZA0Mb; spf=pass (google.com: domain of webrown.cpp@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=webrown.cpp@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: std-proposals@isocpp.org X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:40933 Archived-At: --Apple-Mail=_63F374C1-77EC-4B0F-BF0E-DE45491553D9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > On Nov 8, 2018, at 2:30 PM, T. C. wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 5:08:10 PM UTC-5, Brian Bi wrote: > On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 7:37 AM > wrote= : > Wouldn't it be miles better to instead of un-teaching people from std::en= dl and advertise '\n' to have equally attractive alte= rnative? >=20 > The point is - '\n' is not in any way beginner friendly as it is not an s= td or build in "command"/object, but some alien symbol (to a new comer) lik= e, literally nothing else - it does not even look a single character. > Even for a non-beginner, some prefer typing std::endl as it is just simpl= e letters, not rarely used symbols (double colon, is not rarely used a t al= l)=20 >=20 > I think the reason why novices use std::endl is that they're under the im= pression (no doubt perpetuated by incompetent educators) that std::endl is = portable whereas '\n' isn't. >=20 > Also, I think adding some hypothetical new "std::newline" constant in an = attempt to "seduce" novices does them a disservice by making them waste key= strokes and tempting them to use "using namespace std" to save a few. >=20 > In other words, teaching people to use '\n' really is the best solution. >=20 > I can see a manipulator that does endl-without-the-flush to be marginally= useful. It would be different from << '\n' in that it performs unformatted= output, i.e., no padding. >=20 > I'm not convinced that it's worth standardizing. > =20 > =20 >=20 > Also, if we have a friendly new line alternative we could deprecate endl = and teach to new-line-and-flush-if-needed.=20 > Without deprecating it, we might add confusion. =20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to std-proposal...@isocpp.org . > To post to this group, send email to std-pr...@isocpp.org . > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isoc= pp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/e17189bf-51be-496d-845a-3707a516a210%40isocpp.= org . >=20 >=20 > --=20 > Brian Bi >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org . > To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org . > To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isoc= pp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/fff2c6b4-0f49-4151-bcf0-094e273cafa5%40isocpp.= org . --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp= ..org/d/msgid/std-proposals/EE0B9E72-114F-4182-8A64-67113839FE54%40gmail.com= .. --Apple-Mail=_63F374C1-77EC-4B0F-BF0E-DE45491553D9 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
=
On Nov 8, 2018, a= t 2:30 PM, T. C. <rs2740@= gmail.com> wrote:



On Thu= rsday, November 8, 2018 at 5:08:10 PM UTC-5, Brian Bi wrote:
On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 7:37 AM <mihailn...@g= mail.com> wrote:
=
Wouldn't it be miles better to instead of un-teaching peo= ple from std::endl and advertise '\n' to have equally attractive altern= ative?

The point is - '= \n' is not in any way beginner friendly as it is not an std or build in "co= mmand"/object, but some alien symbol (to a new comer) like, literally nothi= ng else - it does not even look a single character.
Ev= en for a non-beginner, some prefer typing std::endl as it is just simple le= tters, not rarely used symbols (double colon, is not rarely used a t all)&n= bsp;

I think the reason why novices use std::endl is that they're under t= he impression (no doubt perpetuated by incompetent educators) that std::end= l is portable whereas '\n' isn't.

Also, I think adding some hypothetical new "std::newline" = constant in an attempt to "seduce" novices does them a disservice by making= them waste keystrokes and tempting them to use "using namespace std" to sa= ve a few.

In othe= r words, teaching people to use '\n' really is the best solution.

I= can see a manipulator that does endl-without-the-flush to be marginally us= eful. It would be different from << '\n' in that it performs unformat= ted output, i.e., no padding.

I'm not convinced that it's worth standardizing.
 
 
=
=
Also, if we have a friendly new line a= lternative we could deprecate endl and teach to new-line-and-flush-if-neede= d. 
Without deprecating it, we might add confusio= n.  




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Brian Bi
<= /div>

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