220 40929 article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "T. C." Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Can we have beginner friendly new line and deprecate std::endl? 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>> >> The point is - '\n' is not in any way beginner friendly as it is not an >> std or build in "command"/object, but some alien symbol (to a new comer) >> like, literally nothing else - it does not even look a single character. >> Even for a non-beginner, some prefer typing std::endl as it is just >> simple letters, not rarely used symbols (double colon, is not rarely used a >> t all) >> > > I think the reason why novices use std::endl is that they're under the > impression (no doubt perpetuated by incompetent educators) that std::endl > is portable whereas '\n' isn't. > > Also, I think adding some hypothetical new "std::newline" constant in an > attempt to "seduce" novices does them a disservice by making them waste > keystrokes and tempting them to use "using namespace std" to save a few. > > In other words, teaching people to use '\n' really is the best solution. > I can see a manipulator that does endl-without-the-flush to be marginally useful. It would be different from << '\n' in that it performs unformatted output, i.e., no padding. I'm not convinced that it's worth standardizing. > > >> >> Also, if we have a friendly new line alternative we could deprecate endl >> and teach to new-line-and-flush-if-needed. >> Without deprecating it, we might add confusion. >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to std-proposal...@isocpp.org . >> To post to this group, send email to std-pr...@isocpp.org . >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/e17189bf-51be-496d-845a-3707a516a210%40isocpp.org >> >> . >> > > > -- > *Brian Bi* > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/fff2c6b4-0f49-4151-bcf0-094e273cafa5%40isocpp.org. ------=_Part_723_2077986292.1541716223231 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thursday, November 8, 2018 at 5:08:10 PM UTC-5,= Brian Bi wrote:
On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 7:37 = AM <
Wouldn't it be miles better to instead of un-teaching pe= ople from std::endl and advertise '\n' to have equally attracti= ve alternative?

The point is - '\n' is not in an= y way beginner friendly as it is not an std or build in "command"= /object, but some alien symbol (to a new comer) like, literally nothing els= e - it does not even look a single character.
Even for a non-begi= nner, some prefer typing std::endl as it is just simple letters, not rarely= used symbols (double colon, is not rarely used a t all)=C2=A0
<= /blockquote>

I think the reason why novices use std::end= l is that they're under the impression (no doubt perpetuated by incompe= tent educators) that std::endl is portable whereas '\n' isn't.<= /div>

Also, I think adding some hypothetical new "s= td::newline" constant in an attempt to "seduce" novices does= them a disservice by making them waste keystrokes and tempting them to use= "using namespace std" to save a few.

In= other words, teaching people to use '\n' really is the best soluti= on.

I can see a manipulat= or that does endl-without-the-flush to be marginally useful. It would be di= fferent from << '\n' in that it performs unformatted output, = i.e., no padding.

I'm not convinced that it= 9;s worth standardizing.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0

Also= , if we have a friendly new line alternative we could deprecate endl and te= ach to new-line-and-flush-if-needed.=C2=A0
Without deprecating it= , we might add confusion.=C2=A0=C2=A0



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--
Brian Bi=

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposa= ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
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