220 40926 article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Brian Bi Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Can we have beginner friendly new line and deprecate std::endl? 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[209.85.220.41]) by mx.google.com with SMTPS id u13-v6sor1494693ejt.19.2018.11.08.14.08.08 for (Google Transport Security); Thu, 08 Nov 2018 14:08:08 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of bbi5291@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.41; X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:46c7:: with SMTP id k7-v6mr106330ejs.71.1541714887749; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 14:08:07 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: bbi5291@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=WXk9Bthy; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bbi5291@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bbi5291@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: std-proposals@isocpp.org X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:40926 Archived-At: --0000000000003ab7b6057a2e78b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 7:37 AM wrote: > Wouldn't it be miles better to instead of un-teaching people from > std::endl and advertise '\n' > > to have equally attractive alternative? > > The point is - '\n' is not in any way beginner friendly as it is not an > std or build in "command"/object, but some alien symbol (to a new comer) > like, literally nothing else - it does not even look a single character. > Even for a non-beginner, some prefer typing std::endl as it is just simple > letters, not rarely used symbols (double colon, is not rarely used a t all) > I think the reason why novices use std::endl is that they're under the impression (no doubt perpetuated by incompetent educators) that std::endl is portable whereas '\n' isn't. Also, I think adding some hypothetical new "std::newline" constant in an attempt to "seduce" novices does them a disservice by making them waste keystrokes and tempting them to use "using namespace std" to save a few. In other words, teaching people to use '\n' really is the best solution. > > Also, if we have a friendly new line alternative we could deprecate endl > and teach to new-line-and-flush-if-needed. > Without deprecating it, we might add confusion. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. > To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/e17189bf-51be-496d-845a-3707a516a210%40isocpp.org > > . > -- *Brian Bi* -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CAMmfjbOkdN63EON%2BhrCJWj94n48vtVvMfUjzeau5KmPWSpwkow%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000003ab7b6057a2e78b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Nov 8,= 2018 at 7:37 AM <mihailnajd= enov@gmail.com> wrote:
Wouldn't it be miles better to instead of un-teaching people from std::endl and adve= rtise '\n' to have equally attractive alternative?

The point is - '\n' is not in any way beginner friendly as i= t is not an std or build in "command"/object, but some alien symb= ol (to a new comer) like, literally nothing else - it does not even look a = single character.
Even for a non-beginner, some prefer typing std= ::endl as it is just simple letters, not rarely used symbols (double colon,= is not rarely used a t all)=C2=A0

<= div>I think the reason why novices use std::endl is that they're under = the impression (no doubt perpetuated by incompetent educators) that std::en= dl is portable whereas '\n' isn't.

Als= o, I think adding some hypothetical new "std::newline" constant i= n an attempt to "seduce" novices does them a disservice by making= them waste keystrokes and tempting them to use "using namespace std&q= uot; to save a few.

In other words, teaching peopl= e to use '\n' really is the best solution.
=C2=A0

Also, if = we have a friendly new line alternative we could deprecate endl and teach t= o new-line-and-flush-if-needed.=C2=A0
Without deprecating it, we = might add confusion.=C2=A0=C2=A0



=

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--
Brian Bi

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