220 40925 article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: gmisocpp@gmail.com Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Can we have beginner friendly new line and deprecate std::endl? Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 13:53:01 -0800 (PST) Lines: 98 Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: References: Reply-To: std-proposals@isocpp.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_698_1714023355.1541713981943" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1541713860 17959 195.159.176.226 (8 Nov 2018 21:51:00 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2018 21:51:00 +0000 (UTC) Cc: mihailnajdenov@gmail.com To: ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals Original-X-From: std-proposals+bncBCM3TRNUXUDBBP7ASLPQKGQEQGOXQBA@isocpp.org Thu Nov 08 22:50:56 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-yb1-f199.google.com ([209.85.219.199]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1gKsCU-0004Ui-AF for gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 22:50:54 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-yb1-f199.google.com with SMTP id i13-v6sf16309807ybe.14 for ; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 13:53:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isocpp-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=cOxuyCLnfDqm1yeKKlXpdwtBBfD3o0o6BEV1iBdS3Rw=; b=zNkMBqlPKccNeENPFBHXn5g2wPyEg/DwWwZtJLBQyD/VA+oH/oPrQvZ7dbbOUu0KCD KB7IYqOwFyj3L8TjK/2uYDKn1KNGz4OgVvz+LgTATg6jwBBjUSrzAsS3AeZ2oz+aFv8h 0O8MeqCRcSXiY6vKVytWkaJdnG/NOLoMoFYyfF01I20nXI6b8SUImC4BGeLnksspwn/S YmXvBgdUcvd6H9Slyvtz1lR5PoPdEsuFQfqcBUnZciygEqEbPk4kKzP9uUFtG8zkqQoZ 6gVEltPqnMbnXXBXcBDbAQsaIT7AvPvdIol7PH3OVtOgU7uuA7/cgRrjO+wAzMs2y1ZP Bw/Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=cOxuyCLnfDqm1yeKKlXpdwtBBfD3o0o6BEV1iBdS3Rw=; b=YWpfr8uvBY7A9Ypjjls/uffoWwW/nCp/PLlxLlcAHveXxS9y8Xe0hQTwoz1+/hqwOo DCUsA0hwF+yabdUs8nQk6iZBSsglOQMzK7oRp0wthMVT8m5yETTkmiBUHp6Y4uiQc+pP c3UJRqnpA/K3em4r2U1AQxPSuEtfZHZaSYkHL3aSuI/X4TCG7J/n3abHlyGSyHbCCO2i DvwED+oZCzKW3wDYUIryzEs8/pTtN5NyJy/UXtErztrgg8t7MxbABcOY8lgNpn6yhD7U xK9NUTfMtqdaUHxfdJ3g9RXNY5wwizBlkKW8HtT5qBAAfA7o6onLJFpU0kxZ1g2CjWNO u8qw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=cOxuyCLnfDqm1yeKKlXpdwtBBfD3o0o6BEV1iBdS3Rw=; b=LvhL3s72MFXsq738+1hK8GjuoHwF4ZvJlQxWc7siFYiTMya54XRtZvLF2/tJ154gYc YL8XbBi4u4R+kqblKA6iU95IXFF0I9JpeC9zjzKJU8v3yWbovA7g/CryUv4g/CJ+kaqP pyctrvgCO+z0+F/DPwos3CxeYreyvBplad/KlsNawliTjldsAvS4hAMQX9CIAHW9OSBf rO1FH+fB46Fd+sLBqb8VYnJjjHYLmCVKbgl0vNbox50nDCE9GO6KD4E91DAgCHP0ZFzg Ioar3HDb6UyPLKfenMJUoAM/rQdCcE0aHi5Yf9C9OWgHcJfQEBt3kc9F2cRE/3wCwtzE 7vTQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gJpV2ps6LC9vkJrbTVX/S5CAfca+fUha/x9PQPUSbz6ZJDgpZVh W7RTwQ5VGcMTOHma8m+S/5W+NQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5ch6wreDcZ9MaYdUCgk0321z2OeuT9LP+1Dt/3ADBd28q7GzJvKmuiWdqaxtBAdf5OkutCO+w== X-Received: by 2002:a5b:806:: with SMTP id x6-v6mr3489334ybp.33.1541713984183; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 13:53:04 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: std-proposals@isocpp.org Original-Received: by 2002:a25:d209:: with SMTP id j9-v6ls1299935ybg.9.gmail; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 13:53:03 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 2002:a25:afcd:: with SMTP id d13-v6mr68564ybj.2.1541713982956; Thu, 08 Nov 2018 13:53:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: gmisocpp@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: std-proposals@isocpp.org X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:40925 Archived-At: ------=_Part_698_1714023355.1541713981943 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_699_757793461.1541713981944" ------=_Part_699_757793461.1541713981944 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Grumpy me says lets make endl not flush in C++20, since it surprises people. And if people want flush they'll have to add a flush call explicitly. Hopeful me says isn't someone going to produce a new faster API that will replace that whole machinery anyway with something faster and better designed so won't endl et al, all come to a sticky um, end, anyway sometime "soon"? On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 2:37:54 AM UTC+13, mihailn...@gmail.com wrote: > Wouldn't it be miles better to instead of un-teaching people from > std::endl and advertise '\n' > > to have equally attractive alternative? > > The point is - '\n' is not in any way beginner friendly as it is not an > std or build in "command"/object, but some alien symbol (to a new comer) > like, literally nothing else - it does not even look a single character. > Even for a non-beginner, some prefer typing std::endl as it is just simple > letters, not rarely used symbols (double colon, is not rarely used a t all) > > Also, if we have a friendly new line alternative we could deprecate endl > and teach to new-line-and-flush-if-needed. > Without deprecating it, we might add confusion. > > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/f3b96b40-aca4-4df3-a4e4-9b18346956ab%40isocpp.org. ------=_Part_699_757793461.1541713981944 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Grumpy me says=C2=A0lets make endl not flush in C++20= , since it surprises people.
And if people want flush they'll= have to add a flush call explicitly.
Hopeful me says isn't s= omeone going to produce a new faster API that will replace that whole machi= nery anyway with something faster and better designed so won't endl et = al, all come to a sticky um, end, anyway sometime "soon"?

= On Friday, November 9, 2018 at 2:37:54 AM UTC+13, mihailn...@gmail.com wrot= e:
Wouldn't it be mi= les better to instead of un-teaching people from std::endl and advertise '\n&#= 39; to have equally attractive alternative?

The poin= t is - '\n' is not in any way beginner friendly as it is not an std= or build in "command"/object, but some alien symbol (to a new co= mer) like, literally nothing else - it does not even look a single characte= r.
Even for a non-beginner, some prefer typing std::endl as it is= just simple letters, not rarely used symbols (double colon, is not rarely = used a t all)=C2=A0

Also, if we have a friendly ne= w line alternative we could deprecate endl and teach to new-line-and-flush-= if-needed.=C2=A0
Without deprecating it, we might add confusion.= =C2=A0=C2=A0



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposa= ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.= com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/f3b96b40-aca4-4df3-a4e4-9b18346956ab= %40isocpp.org.
------=_Part_699_757793461.1541713981944-- ------=_Part_698_1714023355.1541713981943-- .