220 38446 article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Robert Ramey Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Thumbs Up for No Graphics Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 11:09:46 -0700 Lines: 112 Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: References: <7915a73c-e305-4bce-bf6e-28f20a7faccb@isocpp.org> <20180602065543.GA5176@noemi.bahnhof.se> Reply-To: std-proposals@isocpp.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1527962878 3163 195.159.176.226 (2 Jun 2018 18:07:58 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 18:07:58 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 To: std-proposals@isocpp.org Original-X-From: std-proposals+bncBDG73K7L6AIRB6V2ZPMAKGQENV3SSQQ@isocpp.org Sat Jun 02 20:07:54 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-lf0-f70.google.com ([209.85.215.70]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fPAwS-0000k2-I3 for gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org; 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Original-Received: from list by blaine.gmane.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fPAwN-0000gj-Vh for std-proposals@isocpp.org; Sat, 02 Jun 2018 20:07:47 +0200 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ Original-Lines: 105 Original-X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org In-Reply-To: <20180602065543.GA5176@noemi.bahnhof.se> Content-Language: en-US X-Original-Sender: ramey@rrsd.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 195.159.176.226 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org) smtp.mailfrom=gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: std-proposals@isocpp.org X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:38446 Archived-At: On 6/1/18 11:55 PM, Magnus Fromreide wrote: > On Fri, Jun 01, 2018 at 09:31:53AM -0700, Robert Ramey wrote: >> On 6/1/18 7:32 AM, Richard Hodges wrote: >>> > But what we need is a better way to collecting bits and pieces, not >>> to put the whole world in the standard to make up for insufficient >>> tooling ! >>> >>> A standard way, even? >> >> Actually this is most valuable insight. >> >> The standard works well for the language and certain core libraries such as >> those required to create a common facade for the local operating system. >> >> But it doesn't work well when trying to design library components by >> committee. These components are too complex, too large, and the environment >> is too dynamic to be done within the standards process. People do create >> these components outside of the standards process: Boost, CGal, Eigen and >> many, many, many others. And of course there is GitHub. But these are not >> standardized - so what is the problem. >> >> The problem is that they are not standardized. That is they are >> >> a) of uneven quality >> b) often not documented >> c) evolve "too fast" >> d) fail to present a single widely accepted interface. That is there are >> often competing, different, but similar libraries which are meant to address >> the same problem. >> f) developers of libraries are not sufficiently funded to invest the effort >> required to address the shortcomings above. >> e) including packages of different versions from differing sources creates >> difficulties in management of larger applications. >> >> Assuming the above is an accurate description of the current and past >> situation, what should be done. > > I think you missed one bullet: > > g) evolve "too slow" > > Both c) and g) can be true at the same time if there is more than one user of > the library. > > /MF Right. Some historical perspective. I got my hands on the the source code to a C compiler in 1980 for a Z80 microprocessor. I saw the merit of the language right away as I was working with COBOL at the time. I had a Data General 16 bit processor - high performance machine for it's time. I crafted a backend for the DG. It came with what would be considered today a very primitive standard library. I only had to tweak a few functions written in assembler (fopen, ...) and then use the same compiler to re-compile the standard library. That was it. Hundreds of others did the same thing. C was available on a very wide variety of machines of various architectures. Today, this is not possible. Aside that the language is too large and complex, libraries are now provided by the same supplier as the compiler itself, they end up coupled. So porting the standard library to another architecture seems like a big job. Soooo ... I suggest a) separating the standard library as a separate component with it's own committee etc. Coordination between the standard library committee and language would be limited to cases where some new library function requires compiler support. b) making the "standard library" much smaller. Limit it to basic functions such as API to interface with operating environment. Things like mutex, file io etc. c) leave "application" level components to the open source market place. d) Encourage standards for library development. These are things that everyone agrees we should be doing but almost most no one does. Documentation, consistent naming, test suite. reviews etc. Documentation is kind of interesting. The standard actually has a section named "17.4 Method of Description" which basically supports documentation similar to the original STL documents. See http://www.rrsd.com/software_development/stl/index.htm. Interestingly, almost no one follows or attempts to enforce these "informative" prescription. Changing this might be considered. e) Reconsidering the model for compensation of library authors. Currently there is no such model. If library authors could be paid for their work it some proportion to it's utility, it might permit us to raise expectations for independently created "standard libraries" There might be several ideas for the form such compensation might take: Some sort of royalty would be great - but perhaps hard to enforce. There might be an anual prize - The Falco prize (named after my friend vinnie falco) of significant sum ($100,000). For the best new open source C++ library. This would sucker in a lot of us to create better quality libraries. Perhaps there are other ideas. But just working harder using the current structure and method is not going to improve things. Robert Ramey -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/peumd9%241mt%241%40blaine.gmane.org. .