220 38436 <9bad3834-d0d7-4642-ad8c-b44e0c9b3ce9@isocpp.org> article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Nicol Bolas Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Thumbs Up for No Graphics Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 22:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Lines: 137 Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: <9bad3834-d0d7-4642-ad8c-b44e0c9b3ce9@isocpp.org> References: <7915a73c-e305-4bce-bf6e-28f20a7faccb@isocpp.org> <5e4d757d-b3ef-4ac6-b2d2-4802ce2fbef0@isocpp.org> <1743822.X6ygPEYEuq@tjmaciei-mobl1> Reply-To: std-proposals@isocpp.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_15491_1108242966.1527915729471" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1527915604 4776 195.159.176.226 (2 Jun 2018 05:00:04 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 05:00:04 +0000 (UTC) To: ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals Original-X-From: std-proposals+bncBCEKFTV6ZUMBBUWJZDMAKGQE45YKCHY@isocpp.org Sat Jun 02 07:00:00 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-yw0-f199.google.com ([209.85.161.199]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fOye0-00017b-8m for gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org; Sat, 02 Jun 2018 07:00:00 +0200 Original-Received: by mail-yw0-f199.google.com with SMTP id w8-v6sf12291510ywg.22 for ; Fri, 01 Jun 2018 22:02:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isocpp-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=yAj3f4rSs+Nox9605diQzl7tpAAe70iE9Y2fdM9s874=; b=s9Z96gRWFsJimSvDdKmi9/whxiKFOZaV5ni+ja1X0Er5zcmvWY7bkhGCDts18VCUfy eWJymOAhipIl4k/zFojTcrt/VlTRtPCM8Qa3xFWH8ZTj1UWIOoy+zR2YrpBpZN3LGEru dXffXmNa+JgLCR7yhBypnCLRP7yDHEcHeualYr1qkv5n7llESO/hyBCj+6qa+i7SALNc sG7jJ6M1HJwqG/HJiUyhrEbCUwPbHVM3OFqSBQCV9/DjS0fcErFlWwPc4bt3mJGlA2pp nBFH6oQ19HB8NikPNaW6pkahne/vuUoKWXQ9l46Kumpg2raatrppZ5ln4B1AcdfN4dBc SndQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=yAj3f4rSs+Nox9605diQzl7tpAAe70iE9Y2fdM9s874=; b=M66N0njr5+FfgUmrc+fu7rh+BU6IFRyAF2NkrvZyeoGoK8CTknfwnThuLvQLrSy3XL kHUtCPVeX6y3Kjd7LkdvstUVLilY34aeNvcVCg61+L5Ndy4Qhw1bksWevTBfFB5PvhAV +2N5oGn5iLV0mQaP8SqLqlgSZXOEWoDsFQpHTpm7Vl8FeoeZdgddssgE1koZMIyJzJEk rv143Dj720pJFAk4yo3i+n7MOBrc2qZZuV0NWdC7vGAfvQmS+sCOCxr/YcwOET8M7/tB kv3k7aKHjJ2KMt5aTxGbj4v86sd24wUc2nKpB4mEeqaQRw/7BJSU2NghJxjcPuQQr6j5 HScQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=yAj3f4rSs+Nox9605diQzl7tpAAe70iE9Y2fdM9s874=; b=KV0IgypHNuM+darf2nvrXAmIYumomHJ1EeRAI/qPwodjgq5vsS1OzH49AqSkpUeqf2 2CTGQpTaei1OvG6PsJIIYVkl/0Egk/3og/0pwIaVbSZbuNlorATDpzb4eqCHbXl036Ax SX9Q3DH1yRCy5QYLxgMqtq0mLczFL3Krc+O+GhG16uaMDRs8D1qYz51JFsv9GrshDLb4 4wHibeo7wBqIvF6tc+c4nVyrA09tN+9s4zfbAdZcz2ktDVCenD0m/ZZgvDE8A+AFqndY xlbV63YenJwdWbxSytiucpsBzImbdN4AN7puyp8jnsb9QI7CuaxTtDkMzkcs9Co5VWPa Ez/A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwcFNmN6ZC4X0HHWmWUkJHYms7f5jcpWwI/A2ketB5yExkYbrRkX Sxof2bvIvYUiu2VMkfkEI07Z/A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKLvr/T2zmdKzuMBWqN9LB+N3lFlTjqm6pyxZMxRRhJntT+Z/BuoeCFTYDBEDJL/VKoGZTnVJQ== X-Received: by 2002:a81:98d:: with SMTP id 135-v6mr3422450ywj.209.1527915731260; Fri, 01 Jun 2018 22:02:11 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: std-proposals@isocpp.org Original-Received: by 2002:a5b:8c9:: with SMTP id w9-v6ls9018694ybq.12.gmail; Fri, 01 Jun 2018 22:02:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a25:d0c4:: with SMTP id h187-v6mr538639ybg.9.1527915730033; Fri, 01 Jun 2018 22:02:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: jmckesson@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: std-proposals@isocpp.org X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:38436 Archived-At: ------=_Part_15491_1108242966.1527915729471 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_15492_160257740.1527915729471" ------=_Part_15492_160257740.1527915729471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 10:00:54 PM UTC-4, Rene Rivera wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 8:36 PM, Thiago Macieira > wrote: > >> On Friday, 1 June 2018 12:08:00 PDT Rene Rivera wrote: >> > Right.. But, again, why can't the standard specify behavior of tools? >> What >> > prevents such a specification from being adopted, assuming someone >> proposes >> > it? >> >> Try and we'll see. >> > > I am going to try (I actually started on such a try last Fall). But I was > really curious as to why people think it's not possible. So as to try and > avoid roadblocks. > The kind of tool you need to make it easy to download and build a random C++ application is some form of build system. A *platform independent* build system. That requires dealing with a lot of things that the C++ language standard doesn't even come close to. Basically, think of the analogy like this. The works of Shakespeare, no matter how interesting or wonderful they may be, are not appropriate for inclusion in a *dictionary* or a book on grammar. These are two different-yet-related things that exist in two different-yet-related domains. The same goes for the C++ language and a build system. Yes, we would love to have a platform-independent build system. But that's not part of the language, because that's not what the language is for. What tools are you talking about anyway? >> > > The compiler of course. As it's the first step in being able to define > common aspects for build systems and package managers. > Where does the standard mandate the presence of a "compiler"? There is merely the "implementation". Non-normative language may occasionally refer to a "compiler", but as far as the normative standard is concerned, there are just "implementations". Nothing is said about the implementation, save for the fact that it implements the standard as described. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/9bad3834-d0d7-4642-ad8c-b44e0c9b3ce9%40isocpp.org. ------=_Part_15492_160257740.1527915729471 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Friday, June 1, 2018 at 10:00:54 PM UTC-4, Rene Rivera = wrote:
On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 8:36 PM, Thiago Macieira <thi...@macieira.org> wrote:
On Friday, 1 June 2018 12:08:00 PDT Rene Rivera wrote= :
> Right.. But, again, why can't the standard specify behavior of too= ls? What
> prevents such a specification from being adopted, assuming someone pro= poses
> it?

Try and we'll see.

I am goin= g to try (I actually started on such a try last Fall). But I was really cur= ious as to why people think it's not possible. So as to try and avoid r= oadblocks.

The= kind of tool you need to make it easy to download and build a random C++ a= pplication is some form of build system. A platform independent buil= d system. That requires dealing with a lot of things that the C++ language = standard doesn't even come close to.

Basically= , think of the analogy like this. The works of Shakespeare, no matter how interesting or wonderful they may be, are not appropriate for inclusion in a dictionary or a book on grammar. These are two different-yet-r= elated things that exist in two different-yet-related domains.

The same goes for the C++ language and a build system. Yes, we would love=20 to have a platform-independent build system. But that's not part of the= =20 language, because that's not what the language is for.

<= /div>
What tools are you talking about anyway?

The compiler of course. As it's the first step in being able to defin= e common aspects for build systems and package managers.
<= /div>

Where does the standard mandate the p= resence of a "compiler"? There is merely the "implementation= ". Non-normative language may occasionally refer to a "compiler&q= uot;, but as far as the normative standard is concerned, there are just &qu= ot;implementations".

Nothing is said about th= e implementation, save for the fact that it implements the standard as desc= ribed.

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposa= ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.= com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/9bad3834-d0d7-4642-ad8c-b44e0c9b3ce9= %40isocpp.org.
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