220 38407 article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Richard Hodges Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Thumbs Up for No Graphics Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 15:52:12 +0100 Lines: 403 Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: References: <7915a73c-e305-4bce-bf6e-28f20a7faccb@isocpp.org> Reply-To: std-proposals@isocpp.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000487351056d95bbfb" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1527864619 29732 195.159.176.226 (1 Jun 2018 14:50:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 14:50:19 +0000 (UTC) To: std-proposals@isocpp.org Original-X-From: std-proposals+bncBD4PBM7UWAHRBKF3YXMAKGQEB5SHS3Y@isocpp.org Fri Jun 01 16:50:15 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-it0-f72.google.com ([209.85.214.72]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fOlNd-0007c4-TH for gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org; 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[209.85.220.41]) by mx.google.com with SMTPS id a4-v6sor935364itf.113.2018.06.01.07.52.23 for (Google Transport Security); Fri, 01 Jun 2018 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of hodges.r@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.41; X-Received: by 2002:a24:96:: with SMTP id 144-v6mr4759293ita.76.1527864743194; Fri, 01 Jun 2018 07:52:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: hodges.r@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=jYTzOWJr; spf=pass (google.com: domain of hodges.r@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=hodges.r@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: std-proposals@isocpp.org X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:38407 Archived-At: --000000000000487351056d95bbfb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 at 15:38, Dejan Milosavljevic wrote: > Take look at next thread: > > https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msg/std-proposals/aEdZvQS1Soc/8T= pSRdhSAQAJ > > Everything what apply to GUI is same for Graphics. > And yet OpenGL is a (very successful) standard thing... > > > > On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 4:29 PM, Corentin wrote= : > >> > At the moment, collecting together all the bits and pieces to build a >> cross-platform graphics engine is just too much work. In the end you giv= e >> up the will to continue and switch to an inferior language with better >> support. >> >> I think most people would agree with that observation. >> But what we need is a better way to collecting bits and pieces, not to >> put the whole world in the standard to make up for insufficient tooling = ! >> >> >> Le ven. 1 juin 2018 =C3=A0 16:15, Richard Hodges a >> =C3=A9crit : >> >>> > I wholeheartedly agree, the Committee should not pursue *any* from of >>> "Graphics Programing". >>> >>> While I agree that a Noddy-style 2d line-drawing library is of no use t= o >>> anyone, I strongly feel that there should be a standardised 3d graphics= , >>> sound and human interface library, and damn the difficulties. I'm not >>> arguing that every compiler vendor ships a fully functioning library, b= ut >>> if they do there should be a standard so that vendors can report levels= of >>> compliance. >>> >>> At the moment, collecting together all the bits and pieces to build a >>> cross-platform graphics engine is just too much work. In the end you gi= ve >>> up the will to continue and switch to an inferior language with better >>> support. >>> >>> In my view this is a shame. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 at 14:00, wrote: >>> >>>> Hello, I recently stumbled into p1062R0 (Diet Graphics) >>>> >>>> >>>> I wholeheartedly agree, the Committee should not pursue *any* from of >>>> "Graphics Programing". >>>> >>>> Here is why: >>>> - *Impossible* to keep up-to date with modern trends - *both* >>>> hardware, algorithms and APIs to address the hardware change all the t= ime. >>>> - *Impossible *to look (or perform) nearly the same on all platforms >>>> or implementations. >>>> - *Impossible* to be complete and useful for the real world - useful >>>> graphics programming framework is way bigger the standard library itse= lf! >>>> - *Impossible* to keep up to date in terms of user requests - new >>>> primitives, strokes, colors, brushes, filters, helper functions, >>>> customization points, etc etc etc etc etc >>>> - *Heavy* *burden* on the implementations. >>>> - *Limited use *as a percent of c++ community in comparison to many >>>> other features and libraries, including higher level ones like filesys= tem >>>> - *Will open the floodgates* for *Proposals Related To Graphics* *and= * *Proposals >>>> Which Build On Top Of Graphics, *which the Committee (and the >>>> community) will waste time considering, probably without even having t= he >>>> expertise for that! >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. >>>> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. >>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/7915a73c-= e305-4bce-bf6e-28f20a7faccb%40isocpp.org >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. >>> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CALvx3hZ0O= uf4OgeeaeVjYvVP3n61AWBn3f6%3DH2-3A2hMPxGzVg%40mail.gmail.com >>> >>> . >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. >> To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. >> To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CA%2BOm%2BS= jxfeHSdw%3DDPJGFBJFJtH1NgQ19tH%3DWY5KqKCKkzs-fPg%40mail.gmail.com >> >> . >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. > To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CAEfefmz9U8R= XHkOD2U06vbAoQZJFa7kgg_yc56Z2GxHep-MmCQ%40mail.gmail.com > > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp= ..org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CALvx3ha9NLb6AS%2BwcZ4oiKBK3LhSfROk%2BK%2BTEucmL= ckY9Q-JVA%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000487351056d95bbfb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri= , 1 Jun 2018 at 15:38, Dejan Milosavljevic <dmilos@gmail.com> wrote:
Take look at next thread:

Ever= ything what apply to GUI is same for Graphics.=C2=A0

And yet OpenGL is a (very successful) standard th= ing...
=C2=A0



On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 4:29 PM, Corentin <core= ntin.jabot@gmail.com> wrote:
>=C2=A0At t= he moment, collecting together all the bits and pieces to build a cross-pla= tform graphics engine is just too much work. In the end you give up the wil= l to continue and switch to an inferior language with better support.

I think most people would agree with that obser= vation.=C2=A0
But what we need is a better way to collecting bits= and pieces, not to put the whole world in the standard to make up for insu= fficient tooling !

Le=C2=A0ven. 1 juin= 2018 =C3=A0=C2=A016:15, Richard Hodges <hodges.r@gmail.com> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
=
>=C2=A0I wholeheartedly agree, the Committee should not pursue=C2=A0= any=C2=A0from of "Graphics Programing".

While I agree that a Noddy-style 2d line-drawing library is= of no use to anyone, I strongly feel that there should be a standardised 3= d graphics, sound and human interface library, and damn the difficulties. I= 'm not arguing that every compiler vendor ships a fully functioning lib= rary, but if they do there should be a standard so that vendors can report = levels of compliance.

=
At the moment, collecting together all the bits and pieces to build a = cross-platform graphics engine is just too much work. In the end you give u= p the will to continue and switch to an inferior language with better suppo= rt.

In my view this is a shame.


On Fri, 1 Ju= n 2018 at 14:00, <mihailnajdenov@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello, I recently stumbled into=C2=A0p1062R0 (Diet Graphics)

= I wholeheartedly agree, the Committee should not pursue any from of = "Graphics Programing".

Here is why:
=C2=A0- Impossible to keep up-to date with modern trends - = both hardware, algorithms and APIs to address the hardware change all t= he time.
=C2=A0- Impossible to look (or perform) nearly the same on all p= latforms or implementations.=C2=A0
=C2=A0- Impossible t= o be complete and useful for the real world - useful graphics programming f= ramework is way bigger the standard library itself!
=C2=A0- Im= possible to keep up to date in terms of user requests - new primitives,= strokes, colors, brushes, filters, helper functions, customization points,= etc etc etc etc etc
=C2=A0- Heavy burden on the implementations.= =C2=A0
=C2=A0- Limited use as a percent of c++ community in co= mparison to many other features and libraries, including higher level ones = like filesystem=C2=A0
=C2=A0- Will open the floodgates for= Proposals Related To Graphics and Proposals Which Build O= n Top Of Graphics, which the Committee (and the community) will waste t= ime considering, probably without even having the expertise for that!
=
=C2=A0

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