220 38021 article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "'Matt Calabrese' via ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: variant again Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 14:55:40 +0000 Lines: 99 Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: References: <21d17228-7967-4847-b2ce-f1c0be3c1406@isocpp.org> Reply-To: std-proposals@isocpp.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000066f3eb056ac195d1" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1524754427 20881 195.159.176.226 (26 Apr 2018 14:53:47 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 14:53:47 +0000 (UTC) To: "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" Original-X-From: std-proposals+bncBCGNLO5F34OBB6GQQ7LQKGQELULXNGI@isocpp.org Thu Apr 26 16:53:43 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-it0-f69.google.com ([209.85.214.69]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fBiHG-0005LE-MT for gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org; 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[209.85.220.65]) by mx.google.com with SMTPS id e34-v6sor7434453iod.110.2018.04.26.07.55.52 for (Google Transport Security); Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of calabrese@google.com designates 209.85.220.65 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.65; X-Received: by 2002:a6b:abc2:: with SMTP id u185-v6mr2951480ioe.234.1524754551301; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:55:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <21d17228-7967-4847-b2ce-f1c0be3c1406@isocpp.org> X-Original-Sender: calabrese@google.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@google.com header.s=20161025 header.b=WF/0bl9u; spf=pass (google.com: domain of calabrese@google.com designates 209.85.220.65 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=calabrese@google.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=google.com X-Original-From: Matt Calabrese Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: std-proposals@isocpp.org X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:38021 Archived-At: --00000000000066f3eb056ac195d1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 9:33 AM Nicol Bolas wrote: > On Wednesday, April 25, 2018 at 10:45:18 PM UTC-4, Nevin ":-)" Liber wrote: >> >> For instance, in JAX we had to spend nearly a day debating making the >> built-in signed integer types always wrap, and by doing so we didn't get to >> any papers that might have added new operations and/or types that wrap. >> Was it necessary? Yes, because by our rules we had to debate it. Was it a >> good use of our time? IMO, no, both because it was extremely unlikely that >> wrapping the built in signed types would pass (it didn't) and now we don't >> have any progress on adding ops/types that wrap. >> > > I disagree with the idea that such a discussion was not a good use of > time. If you pre-emptively ignore people without giving them a fair > hearing, you create problems down the line. By giving these minority > viewpoints a fair hearing, even if they're unlikely to succeed, you at > least give them the sense that the standardization process is reasonable. > This makes such people more likely to be willing to continue to participate > in it, and it makes the people watching the process less likely to rebel > against it. > I may agree on principle if we had more time, but because of how rarely the committee actually meets, we end up having to prioritize and not all papers can be discussed. I think the best that one can do for things like this is identify and make sure people read the controversial paper in the mailing and express any over-my-dead-body concerns that a debate cannot possibly change before we even get to a meeting. If the rationale in the paper does not change over-my-dead-body concerns and it is inconceivable that an in-person debate would change those over-my-dead-body concerns due to fundamental issues with the proposal, then I find it difficult to advocate spending any time in the meeting on it. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/CANh8DE%3DCj-0uQ-PELLOsj-%3DuL0vV-O0F%3D599gVwDRPXNg-R6QA%40mail.gmail.com. --00000000000066f3eb056ac195d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Thu, Apr 26= , 2018 at 9:33 AM Nicol Bolas <jm= ckesson@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, April 25, 2018 at 10:45:18 PM UTC-4, Nevin &qu= ot;:-)" Liber wrote:
For instance, in JAX we had t= o spend nearly a day debating making the built-in signed integer types alwa= ys wrap, and by doing so we didn't get to any papers that might have ad= ded new operations and/or types that wrap.=C2=A0 Was it necessary?=C2=A0 Ye= s, because by our rules we had to debate it.=C2=A0 Was it a good use of our= time?=C2=A0 IMO, no, both because it was extremely unlikely that wrapping = the built in signed types would pass (it didn't) and now we don't h= ave any progress on adding ops/types that wrap.

I disagree with the idea that such a discussion was not a= good use of time. If you pre-emptively ignore people without giving them a= fair hearing, you create problems down the line. By giving these minority = viewpoints a fair hearing, even if they're unlikely to succeed, you at = least give them the sense that the standardization process is reasonable. T= his makes such people more likely to be willing to continue to participate = in it, and it makes the people watching the process less likely to rebel ag= ainst it.

I may agree on pr= inciple if we had more time, but because of how rarely the committee actual= ly meets, we end up having to prioritize and not all papers can be discusse= d. I think the best that one can do for things like this is identify and ma= ke sure people read the controversial paper in the mailing and express any = over-my-dead-body concerns that a debate cannot possibly change before we e= ven get to a meeting. If the rationale in the paper does not change over-my= -dead-body concerns and it is inconceivable that an in-person debate would = change those over-my-dead-body concerns due to fundamental issues with the = proposal, then I find it difficult to advocate spending any time in the mee= ting on it.

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