220 35996 <686859ee-c531-4594-a790-f20ff2e9eea1@isocpp.org> article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Nicol Bolas Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Question about Networking, Ranges, Modules and Concepts Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:48:34 -0800 (PST) Lines: 159 Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: <686859ee-c531-4594-a790-f20ff2e9eea1@isocpp.org> References: <9b071162-7272-41e8-a544-aa5270343ade@isocpp.org> Reply-To: std-proposals@isocpp.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_23426_331284071.1513644514118" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1513644412 19549 195.159.176.226 (19 Dec 2017 00:46:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 00:46:52 +0000 (UTC) To: ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals Original-X-From: std-proposals+bncBCEKFTV6ZUMBBYWD4HIQKGQEC67QFFY@isocpp.org Tue Dec 19 01:46:47 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-ua0-f199.google.com ([209.85.217.199]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1eR63Q-00040y-C1 for gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org; Tue, 19 Dec 2017 01:46:44 +0100 Original-Received: by mail-ua0-f199.google.com with SMTP id 30sf10933595uad.2 for ; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:48:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isocpp-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=QltZOenNeiUkbc/af5U9i+7B8yt0tnDabu7oonfUr/A=; b=W+750andv0FUWKwr/20mY7KK01F0s1uLRDhrdPpx/5/6f+HEUkEb7BUFG/z3Kja92/ nFUc41coG6LBF108UWNXuP0Z7+xCeb8Af3puTPyx6uS0wqAIoOeTtnDim8nZboH/ujxC 86Vf9YeMM+Mjo6+Fb8m6wrW18lKBILgeHaicf2yJX0b54shSwSOlOn97BoRZ1V3wHhyU G2zJ5Gq/NndOjRQkEv7IHCl6bcLNRfD9lUfB5InBHb8uiyCNm9icfPM3nLgIqpD1A1T4 y09Xto8WKIxuiRU8Rfeypu7lk+6MtEPwYF/9Bp6JYMX3eR72IKwG4LxM97+63rNi0Z0G v7EA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=QltZOenNeiUkbc/af5U9i+7B8yt0tnDabu7oonfUr/A=; b=baJ4wYbfZaMfk4BprBe0mOMzFgDyolGd3lOBVEJf5HG4pPMxmVV8/VITYmhxFvka9e ydyfo7dMz5Z1clWDVFRj6NqMjuxphQ5ijByOtM4PL3DC6OZOT/WwQB4Bsg6HGDDzaW0C eHCy0cjgPQ7zIUsUSdIUEjdEXyDUznfO2vbCwchPlpGKSHqWngmz0iOw+RfNPSZmw92i fheKr6pK7MtuuLhbAujwhrV1ZDlaqcriqaL/X9IB8+VJKFPl9fT9ZBT1ZCZlqrSQkYON 20w4Bx9MdrIXSqbkRuFC91SwtnCA7V+tC/nF2hOSm9Fxbb8TNodEcDkVT985rq0dX9tH RCOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=QltZOenNeiUkbc/af5U9i+7B8yt0tnDabu7oonfUr/A=; b=RraqNnZp313EmnSoZwsoiKy1jcOd55cM58QEbk3IMgl2nV4seYnNQyZ3G8xyqZLiQw 89TwgLs5xWkyq3llra3DZ/Hv6PSUWEoxBet4xlQ3cOw9vcYBzhhDgr9GvA7mAGUlWj4w qfqQh4HrktV2d+B/e1n18EY1WmlZY8XTNBZnfPV8edOMmaOEp7bXO+mvdW4srXjyavio qOOReA/4rlOZlTr0IUCfgB+r+pzBRnXNioRCKsbWKDIb51z5fCDooenFck1xBk/tjw9o qAYl6b6HHCfAjQpczdCCU0JAvbAaCq6aK6M5Ii2XwHfrjc0WB2T3OAUNKIeoRH54YY/z VEHA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mLeTyJjkygnwFdbEV/lHGn+sA7oxRLMO0pSXjnlODwEA0bzbJgb bCB8rFlKAMu/Lf2xxvXvMlr19Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBouzu06Vccq+rAA4qgX04pRa3noVnfuxWYaOY7SF3usbXfqgkzqw04JfkhyBEUW2KPpYbz5CNw== X-Received: by 10.31.151.81 with SMTP id z78mr740072vkd.87.1513644516297; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:48:36 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: std-proposals@isocpp.org Original-Received: by 10.31.168.12 with SMTP id r12ls3155711vke.13.gmail; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:48:34 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.31.164.131 with SMTP id n125mr142037vke.14.1513644514642; Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:48:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: jmckesson@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: std-proposals@isocpp.org X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:35996 Archived-At: ------=_Part_23426_331284071.1513644514118 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_23427_1016557137.1513644514118" ------=_Part_23427_1016557137.1513644514118 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 7:41:36 PM UTC-5, Osman Zakir wrote: > > On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:08:09 AM UTC+5, Ville Voutilainen wrote: >> >> On 19 December 2017 at 01:11, Osman Zakir wrote: >> > Regarding what you said about the Networking TS: Do you mean it's a >> "maybe >> > in C++20, maybe later" thing like Ranges? Or do you mean it's going to >> be >> >> Yes. >> >> > in C++20? I heard it was already approved for publication. What >> stages are >> >> There are no guarantees that either Networking or Ranges will make it >> into C++20, >> but there's active encouragement to work towards those goals, and >> Ranges complements >> a major feature that has already been approved into the C++20 working >> draft (Concepts). >> >> > the Networking and Ranges TS's, respectively, in right now? If it's >> okay to >> > ask. >> >> They have been published, as was already stated. See >> https://isocpp.org/std/status >> > > I don't understand that status graph thing that well. Like, I can tell > what the stuff with the arrows means, but nothing aside from that. > > Anyway, I'm happy that Networking and Ranges are being actively encouraged > for standardization, but I hope it happens ASAP (I don't mean to rush > anyone, though). > > And this is probably a dumb question, but: what features and additions > does the language need, direct support for web development or no, that > would encourage it to be used for that more than it is now? It seems like > people already use it for that when they need the performance and speed > boost, but opt to use scripting languages when that is not needed since a > lot of the things they want to be able to are harder in C++ and it's > generally thought of as a waste of time. So really, what I'm asking is: > What does C++ need to be able to do for it not be thought of as a waste of > time, so that web developers will use it more? I'd really like for this to > happen soon if possible (and if the standards committee is also in support > of it). > I don't see how this "make C++ useful for web development" thing is going to be anything other than a race C++ can *never* win. C++ gets updates ever 3 years. The web changes much faster than that. There's no effective way for C++ to keep up in such an environment. Not so long as it advances through ISO standardization. C++ is good at being what it currently is. We should work on making it better at that. We shouldn't feel like C++ is a lesser language just because it's not used for web development. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/686859ee-c531-4594-a790-f20ff2e9eea1%40isocpp.org. ------=_Part_23427_1016557137.1513644514118 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 7:41:36 PM UTC-5, Osman Za= kir wrote:
On = Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 5:08:09 AM UTC+5, Ville Voutilainen wrote:On 19 December 2017 at 01:11, Osman Za= kir <osman...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Regarding what you said about the Networking TS: Do you mean it= 9;s a "maybe
> in C++20, maybe later" thing like Ranges? =C2=A0Or do you mea= n it's going to be

Yes.

> in C++20? =C2=A0I heard it was already approved for publication. = =C2=A0What stages are

There are no guarantees that either Networking or Ranges will make it
into C++20,
but there's active encouragement to work towards those goals, and
Ranges complements
a major feature that has already been approved into the C++20 working
draft (Concepts).

> the Networking and Ranges TS's, respectively, in right now? = =C2=A0If it's okay to
> ask.

They have been published, as was already stated. See
https://isocpp.org/std/status

I don't understand that status gra= ph thing that well.=C2=A0 Like, I can tell what the stuff with the arrows m= eans, but nothing aside from that. =C2=A0

Anyway, = I'm happy that Networking and Ranges are being actively encouraged for = standardization, but I hope it happens ASAP (I don't mean to rush anyon= e, though). =C2=A0

And this is probably a dumb que= stion, but: what features and additions does the language need, direct supp= ort for web development or no, that would encourage it to be used for that = more than it is now?=C2=A0 It seems like people already use it for that whe= n they need the performance and speed boost, but opt to use scripting langu= ages when that is not needed since a lot of the things they want to be able= to are harder in C++ and it's generally thought of as a waste of time.= =C2=A0 So really, what I'm asking is: What does C++ need to be able to = do for it not be thought of as a waste of time, so that web developers will= use it more?=C2=A0 I'd really like for this to happen soon if possible= (and if the standards committee is also in support of it).

I don't see how this "make C++ useful= for web development" thing is going to be anything other than a race = C++ can never win. C++ gets updates ever 3 years. The web changes mu= ch faster than that. There's no effective way for C++ to keep up in suc= h an environment. Not so long as it advances through ISO standardization.

C++ is good at being what it currently is. We shoul= d work on making it better at that. We shouldn't feel like C++ is a les= ser language just because it's not used for web development.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposa= ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.= com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/686859ee-c531-4594-a790-f20ff2e9eea1= %40isocpp.org.
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