220 33637 article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Phil Bouchard Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: Re: Deterministic C++ memory manager Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2017 19:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Lines: 187 Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: References: <68af3311-d2d7-42ff-8cfd-f8bcdc20bf0c@isocpp.org> <4398822.Pm5k2y7gIr@tjmaciei-mobl1> <4729d236-c2ae-409a-a023-102e6c8bb0d5@isocpp.org> <1702971.pEYQYCCQ6l@tjmaciei-mobl1> <7adbfe8e-13f9-42d9-8916-e89456fc9d7f@isocpp.org> Reply-To: std-proposals@isocpp.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_2676_1223608343.1502073005303" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1502073008 7697 195.159.176.226 (7 Aug 2017 02:30:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 02:30:08 +0000 (UTC) To: ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals Original-X-From: std-proposals+bncBCAYTFXFZMBBBLVBT7GAKGQEIX7ZMCQ@isocpp.org Mon Aug 07 04:30:03 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-yw0-f200.google.com ([209.85.161.200]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1deXnt-0001dK-Nq for gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org; Mon, 07 Aug 2017 04:30:02 +0200 Original-Received: by mail-yw0-f200.google.com with SMTP id o192sf135374073ywd.8 for ; Sun, 06 Aug 2017 19:30:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isocpp-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=Flne9xNFncg4UKim1BJSKDM3zaxPSJc97HvTywEdOQc=; b=YakGsElpFkPAxIXN6ksHPFyqsq0u2nnL9y0jMF9FqeT7SgJDR7n61qXaXCCR4g+gCi apNHesY1LPLtuuh1FWHbwVMHaSmCdXS+TAEXEDPgxw5O0FUxSXjdQvRlGvjohl1rMvL/ aKQpoSbgjVKbH8iQVJlq/csR6TvK0H3iUMUs79BP7reRABAsZZahdZVhcFp00gw8Jgaw Btc99jNoOa4u6rH8txUVq5HYme5qfet2TuCDDTHgKQ+niMU35IW3xv8uezrg5IU1woJZ rBONh0RuLdPQzj1M5ssatNUL0mbsN5vCZxhee3HZXMr+56mHgWliXhbFfwDSeL6P7hOO 02VQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=Flne9xNFncg4UKim1BJSKDM3zaxPSJc97HvTywEdOQc=; b=uHsAHidpNnv623dsWtpRtSVF7GEiLp4nTtD9mUHxCin/KgODU8oBkMGMLKcbIjc9hC +ZruCND3MgG37V7PdHa+96tkV5mxHGMQ/B7ac3Uf/eVClcpIDbT90imu8wLTloKqBBWw jJ4xrQGMBc26WtB/CQ6AuI8A0BwxEMEpmM5HCHLfA/dAEO2ezGkePQ4FQP8aph8dwiwE +QKU9+k76VEuVudHkONqnT6nEgOnH47+AwrVP680hzgxx2Li/cR7W6QLzIKO70udDVtv QdJLOMC2dKv/eweB1KVBQHpD3yddCOnsW5uY3oQEMkxc1MiU8SotR48rjKQXV7oGElvR LrKA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence :mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=Flne9xNFncg4UKim1BJSKDM3zaxPSJc97HvTywEdOQc=; b=iHFMFZVa67z2a8XwlkSxAkZQZ8xi+LrJMGYcT1kIvjA2rR9GS7Xhzvm9yTGQDX4Rk5 MeUUd2+xqjZR4rABDkXoTYL3dNcIAW+/LEybY9ihGBA7sdc/zy31kHc+xm5Qjdagwx8i Uw2FdAg6cBGOKhJGK6CbLTgEDNce2XHepIZoNldwNwqFpyDU92cugWqBiSxE+Whlos9P U9ByGUeTq6RDVXMZ3oPMtuUSvhExZgbHNwDrGaJhb7jWhWt8TKQ+VhdY1XxbJoQGJobw Wr1n1DG4hIC672dJcFIdDFGaUQB5trhUtVHe84DFPI9fXh4wPLerL2T544CCq8xXu/MN 2dvg== X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw110fwfGBeS4E1QTEGC+Ih/6oGGZdiWKa1bNaHMmCHBiIHAZZDYN8 Z9SxlKzCVoxhk0gE X-Received: by 10.129.72.143 with SMTP id v137mr7160155ywa.146.1502073007250; Sun, 06 Aug 2017 19:30:07 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: std-proposals@isocpp.org Original-Received: by 10.107.141.4 with SMTP id p4ls5400438iod.30.gmail; Sun, 06 Aug 2017 19:30:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.31.142.14 with SMTP id q14mr55149vkd.19.1502073005824; Sun, 06 Aug 2017 19:30:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: philippeb8@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:33637 Archived-At: ------=_Part_2676_1223608343.1502073005303 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2677_1573169303.1502073005303" ------=_Part_2677_1573169303.1502073005303 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let's put it in another way: I am obviously willing to support it but if I= =20 spend the next 10 years doing so then this means there is something wrong.= =20 If I just spend a year or two supporting it then this means my abstraction= =20 is solid. On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 3:17:36 PM UTC-4, Micha=C5=82 Dominiak wrote: > > I don't agree with the idea of patents for the software industry (and in = a=20 > lesser extend, in other industries too) either, but regardless of that - = OP=20 > seems to think that getting a thing into the standard will get him immort= al=20 > fame, and getting others to implement a similar thing (which already=20 > happened, in multiple settings, from what I undestand) will be the worst= =20 > thing ever. > > Also, *@Phil:* in what way do you think a standard library component=20 > "doesn't need support"? if you think it doesn't you should talk to the=20 > implementers. > > On Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 9:10 PM Nicol Bolas > wrote: > >> On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 1:30:04 PM UTC-4, Phil Bouchard wrote: >>> >>> And a patent, I think, takes years to get which is a little bit=20 >>> counterproductive in the software industry. >>> >> >> Some might argue that patents themselves are "counterproductive in the= =20 >> software industry", but that is neither here nor there. This discussion= =20 >> does raises an interesting question, however. >> >> The C++ standard specifies behavior, not implementation. As such, what= =20 >> goes into the standard is not something that is patentable (I think?).= =20 >> However, implementation techniques could be patentable, and behavior is= =20 >> often informed by implementation techniques. As such, if the best (or on= ly)=20 >> technique for implementing a feature is encumbered by patents, and we kn= ow=20 >> that even before standardizing it, is that something we *want* to=20 >> standardize? >> >> I certainly don't like the idea of C++ implementations being required to= =20 >> pay money or otherwise license something from a 3rd party just so that t= hey=20 >> can implement the standard with reasonable quality. >> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to std-proposal...@isocpp.org . >> To post to this group, send email to std-pr...@isocpp.org . >> To view this discussion on the web visit=20 >> https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/7adbfe8e-13= f9-42d9-8916-e89456fc9d7f%40isocpp.org=20 >> >> . >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp= ..org/d/msgid/std-proposals/c808bce1-d2e9-4dec-b7cf-fd70d58c765f%40isocpp.or= g. ------=_Part_2677_1573169303.1502073005303 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Let's put it in another way: I am obviously willing to= support it but if I spend the next 10 years doing so then this means there= is something wrong. If I just spend a year or two supporting it then this = means my abstraction is solid.

On Sunday, August 6, 2017 at 3:17:36 = PM UTC-4, Micha=C5=82 Dominiak wrote:
I don't agree with the idea of patents for the = software industry (and in a lesser extend, in other industries too) either,= but regardless of that - OP seems to think that getting a thing into the s= tandard will get him immortal fame, and getting others to implement a simil= ar thing (which already happened, in multiple settings, from what I undesta= nd) will be the worst thing ever.

Also, @Phil:=C2= =A0in what way do you think a standard library component "doesn't = need support"? if you think it doesn't you should talk to the impl= ementers.

On= Sun, Aug 6, 2017 at 9:10 PM Nicol Bolas <jmck...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, August 6,= 2017 at 1:30:04 PM UTC-4, Phil Bouchard wrote:
And a patent, I think, takes years to get whic= h is a little bit counterproductive in the software industry.

Some might argue that patents them= selves are "counterproductive in the software industry", but that= is neither here nor there. This discussion does raises an interesting ques= tion, however.

The C++ standard=20 specifies behavior, not implementation. As such, what goes into the standar= d is not something that is patentable (I think?). However, implementation t= echniques could be patentable, and behavior is often informed by implementa= tion techniques. As such, if the best (or only) technique for implementing = a feature is encumbered by patents, and we know that even before standardiz= ing it, is that=20 something we want to standardize?

I certainly don't like = the idea of C++ implementations being required to pay money or otherwise li= cense something from a 3rd party just so that they can implement the standa= rd with reasonable quality.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposal...@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-pr...@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com= /a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/7adbfe8e-13f9-42d9-8916-= e89456fc9d7f%40isocpp.org.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposa= ls+unsubscribe@isocpp.org.
To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.= com/a/isocpp.org/d/msgid/std-proposals/c808bce1-d2e9-4dec-b7cf-fd70d58c765f= %40isocpp.org.
------=_Part_2677_1573169303.1502073005303-- ------=_Part_2676_1223608343.1502073005303-- .