220 28290 article Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: najjarchedy@gmail.com Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: what makes a Concept a Concept? Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 10:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Lines: 140 Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: References: <1fc1c369-a709-41b0-bcd6-5fc01e814a5a@isocpp.org> Reply-To: std-proposals@isocpp.org NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1668_846661339.1474305344126" X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1474305365 15367 195.159.176.226 (19 Sep 2016 17:16:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2016 17:16:05 +0000 (UTC) Cc: najjarchedy@gmail.com To: ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals Original-X-From: std-proposals+bncBD5YPAFITIARBQN2QC7QKGQEZNBSUXY@isocpp.org Mon Sep 19 19:15:58 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-pa0-f69.google.com ([209.85.220.69]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1bm2AT-0001od-Ug for gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org; Mon, 19 Sep 2016 19:15:46 +0200 Original-Received: by mail-pa0-f69.google.com with SMTP id wk8sf315966279pab.3 for ; Mon, 19 Sep 2016 10:15:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=isocpp-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=HTEmHbwrmdGI2XvqvwAG1hsgIrzoXGmbFYdKMqc+614=; b=FpqCcD45Z+9yzQGCFA29q5703YuXppg9gwq1SerhVZmwM2Hcw0MEf+xdX4jnL6vmwJ 87ZRSwgymBHHm9ZSZh2YiMZq3xLVNk/+Q6EX6rttmX2Yg6uYoCMs2nCktIs+56Efhl+J epOhBeuvojZdXNG2AltK9FwGDtJLvgsLaDzQfxIS/S8zSRG2tZr+x1mWxLg1bvi1L4lV jPwVXypP8udMTH8zi88/ZVMD5YZZmCM/4qj76OQ5i+QwZh4F9yd2HTkXprOox8lpYavr sYFcS1He340dflwxZCYKgdv19LjzgLM7n/TtJmsfiBfsUUjeUKMgLoaq0cLfOpW51Xv+ N3Fw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=HTEmHbwrmdGI2XvqvwAG1hsgIrzoXGmbFYdKMqc+614=; b=dC9f3ZnvMydWf0lseWgW4cEUzEb+f7TCFwIQuhH4EAd+ifTw59fZMMqdmwG55yVD7Q F7DFXMNSado35cU78B6CK2HmZKKOe2QYN7OzCI57zJEd8nyYTYxeyhAgFDdEf4fFWqxE 9OiV6mq3SyTLteLhhEqnyMOEbf1Mw0S2MiulgbxEbX74P04wdJeLtL4jdjj0Zqw3Wvkh jUmDP5CR/fJ/vbMDtHla7swabBI43xYzZH3DRHJgfqIBRj4dI9y10Gg+yTc+kS3BjEaT or3/ku0BLFrEm5lmuV0P34hhA5o2rInanhtZ8gyniPwEOclKBW/BrwbJvuK7kPVstpRf oNbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:cc:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=HTEmHbwrmdGI2XvqvwAG1hsgIrzoXGmbFYdKMqc+614=; b=gXia81Ov9Nibr6nt+p+ojcdTr5DmEEwKWZOzYwoT3wANsqTDS2C+3ADatL2NxLw1qz QkBHto6KJ+EOdY/yrtAEmvkH9gQkcZAbWoNLolh5hwSd6Hz1q3qxFvcwf4HvSBloFZ7o vHfakS7I9qsG/FZu04NuAPB4xYn3wGKNlRoo8fVUGyRH7vtLbASYy7FDSAEgSwOm00l8 8FOmLiRjB5XIut6h8+4x2I5EN+N0mUhRYrDQFj28Nh0EjBjc+455u8mD5O8dEztqHc+k rWsEOyxtnkXxNamCpSGDAQNXa7X4n7HzyDbqxkeYdsIRxwnDDZgTLxBXXQGTQJXScUSJ mM6w== X-Gm-Message-State: AE9vXwMqUMIRzYodx2n76aifH3xw/RS2FhcmVHFfv9D29KdlGptb1mxBQIYVmuuAOVRsww== X-Received: by 10.66.165.6 with SMTP id yu6mr4509923pab.81.1474305347109; Mon, 19 Sep 2016 10:15:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: std-proposals@isocpp.org Original-Received: by 10.36.36.72 with SMTP id f69ls2917587ita.11.canary; Mon, 19 Sep 2016 10:15:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.36.120.140 with SMTP id p134mr338518itc.10.1474305344715; Mon, 19 Sep 2016 10:15:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1fc1c369-a709-41b0-bcd6-5fc01e814a5a@isocpp.org> X-Original-Sender: najjarchedy@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:28290 Archived-At: ------=_Part_1668_846661339.1474305344126 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1669_1458044428.1474305344127" ------=_Part_1669_1458044428.1474305344127 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable @Nicol Bolas :Okay fair enough: what you are saying is that the language=20 doesn't offer mechanism to distinguish between *Simple Constraints*{"not=20 good concept"} and *Concept*(and that's sth obvious from the provided=20 mechanisms), for the language it's just the same. but, @Nicol Bolas &=20 Robert Ramey, at the same time when reading papers(design papers) about=20 Concepts we find Designers talking about the idea of *Syntactic and=20 Semantic requirments*. for example M. Bjane Stroustrap is saying that Concept are Constraints plus= =20 "axioms", and the semantic part of this definition is axioms. here are some citations from B.S and others intresting papers: B.S.: > constraints are predicates on static > properties of a type, and concepts are abstract specifications of an=20 > algorithm=E2=80=99s > syntactic and semantic requirements > and also : Constraints are necessary building blocks > of concepts. Semantic properties are represented as axioms. We summarize= =20 > our > approach: concepts =3D constraints + axioms.=20 > =20 fundamental paper of concept design: A concept is a predicate that expresses a set of requirements on types.=20 > These requirements > consist of syntactic requirements, which what related types, literals,=20 > operations, and expressions > are available, and semantic requirements that give meaning to the require= d=20 > syntax and also > provide complexity guarantees > the documentation is divided in part for beginners with just the purpose= =20 of using the language feature in some General understanding of=20 Concepts,(and the basic definition is Concepts are requirement on template= =20 arguments)and a part to advanced Devers to understand the idea behind=20 concept. but what i understand is that there is no formal definition of a=20 concept(not from mechanism perspective), in some way we can say that what= =20 could make a Concept is the universality of imposed Constraints for all=20 C++ programmers(library algo, ...), Regularity is a fundamental property of= =20 types passed to STL Algorithms. P.S.: sorry for the wrong forum. the two section starts with ISO C++=20 Stand... . --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/isocpp= ..org/d/msgid/std-proposals/f2e808a0-5204-4ba8-b6c3-4fb96367ce39%40isocpp.or= g. ------=_Part_1669_1458044428.1474305344127 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

@Nicol Bolas :Okay fair enough: what = you are saying is that the language doesn't offer mechanism to distingu= ish between Simple Constraints{"not good concept"} and = Concept(and that's sth obvious from the provided mechanisms), for t= he language it's just the same. but, @Nicol Bolas & Robert Ramey, a= t the same time when reading papers(design papers) about Concepts we find D= esigners talking about the idea of Syntactic and Semantic requirm= ents.
for example M. Bjane Stroustrap is saying that Concept are Con= straints plus "axioms", and the semantic part of this definition = is axioms.
here are some citations from B.S and others intresting papers= :
B.S.:
con= straints are predicates on static
properties of a type, and concepts are= abstract specifications of an algorithm=E2=80=99s
syntactic and semanti= c requirements

and also :

Constraints are necessary building= blocks
of concepts. Semantic properties are represented as axioms. We s= ummarize our
approach: concepts =3D constraints + axioms.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0fundamental paper of concept design:
A concept i= s a predicate that expresses a set of requirements on types. These requirem= ents
consist of syntactic requirements, which what related types, litera= ls, operations, and expressions
are available, and semantic requirements= that give meaning to the required syntax and also
provide complexity gu= arantees

the documentation is=C2=A0 divided in par= t for beginners with just the purpose of using the language feature in some= General understanding of Concepts,(and the basic definition is Concepts ar= e requirement=C2=A0 on template arguments)and a part to advanced Devers to = understand the idea behind concept.

but what i understand is that th= ere is no formal definition of a concept(not from mechanism=C2=A0 perspecti= ve), in some way we can say that what could make a Concept is the universal= ity of imposed=C2=A0 Constraints for all C++ programmers(library algo, ...)= , Regularity is a fundamental property of types passed to STL Algorithms.
P.S.: sorry for the wrong forum. the two section starts with ISO C++ = Stand... .

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