220 19625 article Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ville Voutilainen Newsgroups: gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals Subject: Re: try_realloc Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 15:53:07 +0300 Lines: 84 Approved: news@gmane.org Message-ID: References: <30f59ec7-0712-48fb-9df0-d66e3fe80c3c@isocpp.org> <2839762.j35TZXxY8Y@tjmaciei-mobl4> <20150802102813.GA6177@noemi.bahnhof.se> <7C86EFA3-F6B3-44B4-9B36-C2B583EBE43F@gmail.com> <15d79bb1-61b2-496d-ad8d-22d2c441b538@isocpp.org> <4D9A3974-B2CE-4C92-9C1E-10213AB67C53@gmail.com> <20150803000847.GA7843@noemi.bahnhof.se> <26ef5632-2004-498b-8212-f9cb8b7ad451@isocpp.org> <04258155-8308-4701-97ed-c7d49b2990e2@isocpp.org> <3388d6e8-41db-4e47-8b9d-96c0855601b4@isocpp.org> <09c795da-30c4-46b3-b136-25a1ccc1429a@isocpp.org> Reply-To: std-proposals@isocpp.org NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1438692790 22105 80.91.229.3 (4 Aug 2015 12:53:10 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2015 12:53:10 +0000 (UTC) To: "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" Original-X-From: std-proposals+bncBC5JHI7A7ALRBM7LQKXAKGQE75QATZI@isocpp.org Tue Aug 04 14:53:10 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from mail-qk0-f199.google.com ([209.85.220.199]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZMbiP-000857-9M for gclcip-std-proposals@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Aug 2015 14:53:09 +0200 Original-Received: by qkdv3 with SMTP id v3sf8190322qkd.1 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2015 05:53:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:content-type:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=h/WNAdSFwB5miPPMF3QZlCItq9ZSGJYlvdBF8ThVY2I=; b=EfLTI+VhhCfTZA4/mCS2NB5MsAs5z5j62uWz6Ly8H2iCpUhbV8WzJX+06SqQ63pTll YPmpKXrKpdPF7ONjjCkOmpBSriB10pz3E3qx5siL61Ba91sgr/yFVFNjTmwX7D581zRZ XOn1qh9HOcmHwTdIB3DLNAfU1mW1BeOqQx6PCa4iAuJL2sX+02PuahRH/1+LJRTjKY3u KQnu7cVVj5OnCgH4rMNjuiP3kgeeqXH5QVkEaHWmMHB2QwWvd1YjrksaLwdLgXBF15UW k0V5HlHGiuqlO5NgeuBNPeY1ndeltbEjwm9+NGKKZMJgBuHCafnnoIwusx0LQDAsvlXL g0Cg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk9570YxaB2PrCW1Pwu9K++D0sUpe4TpNlQQ/ASWvNLxB0woJ11z9JZWGUz07AEgL1QizoP X-Received: by 10.129.70.133 with SMTP id t127mr2980173ywa.58.1438692788426; Tue, 04 Aug 2015 05:53:08 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: std-proposals@isocpp.org Original-Received: by 10.107.41.136 with SMTP id p130ls165919iop.73.gmail; Tue, 04 Aug 2015 05:53:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.107.10.138 with SMTP id 10mr3012728iok.118.1438692787540; Tue, 04 Aug 2015 05:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from mail-ig0-x232.google.com (mail-ig0-x232.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4001:c05::232]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f186si1543175ioe.187.2015.08.04.05.53.07 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 04 Aug 2015 05:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ville.voutilainen@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c05::232; Original-Received: by igbpg9 with SMTP id pg9so92063297igb.0 for ; Tue, 04 Aug 2015 05:53:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.138.73 with SMTP id qo9mr3313027igb.64.1438692787400; Tue, 04 Aug 2015 05:53:07 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: by 10.36.53.9 with HTTP; Tue, 4 Aug 2015 05:53:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <09c795da-30c4-46b3-b136-25a1ccc1429a@isocpp.org> X-Original-Sender: ville.voutilainen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ville.voutilainen@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ville.voutilainen@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list std-proposals@isocpp.org; contact std-proposals+owners@isocpp.org List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: std-proposals@isocpp.org X-Google-Group-Id: 399137483710 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.comp.lang.c++.isocpp.proposals:19625 Archived-At: On 4 August 2015 at 14:49, wrote: > Ville - you are making my points! No I'm not, you continue to deliberately misunderstand what I'm saying, and claiming that I'm making your points seriously misrepresents what I said. > Firstly: Yes! I am prone to make colorful remarks. But how level-headed I > am, and how good an idea I bring, are two independent concepts! Ideas need > to be accepted from anyone, level-headed or not, because they are not that Ideas don't need to be accepted from anyone. Ideas can be discussed, accepting them is a completely different matter. > person's ideas, they are ideas, and they have merit regardless of who voiced > them. This is why it's wrong to require that the person who brings the idea > also represents it in meeting. Ideas need to be brought by anyone, but then No such requirement has ever been made. We have never ever required that a proposal author presents his proposal himself, it's always been ok to find a champion to present a proposal instead of the author. > So: you're not set up to take ideas from people who can't represent them > well. Correct - we are not mindreaders, so if nobody can explain a proposal, there's little reason that it should be accepted. > Secondly: Yes! I lack the knowledge to explain, in language terms, how > moving an object with memcpy is properly described. I can explain it in > intuitive terms, but this isn't the answer you want. The answer you want is > in terms of the existing language spec, and here I completely lack the > background. I want that explanation in terms that make sense, and I most certainly don't want it in terms that invent new meaning for the terms in the standard. If "lifetime" is a term non-intuitive to you, I can't help you there. If you don't even understand the lifetime concerns of destructive move, it's about time you let other people already working on destructive move handle it, because they can understand those concerns. > Are you seeing, or are you not seeing, that if N libraries do the same thing > X, and this works under the language as-is, but it's undefined according to > specification - that the problem is in the specification, not in the use? That is far from obvious, and is under active dispute. > Are you seeing that someone who points this out is not necessarily in a > position to resolve the issue with the specification; but that this doesn't > mean that the issue should not be resolved? In other words, you're not pointing out anything the authors of the destructive move proposals don't already know, so you're just making pointless noise? > Now, consider this: > Why should it be possible for me to come to your mailing list, and unload my > ideas on you free of charge, no matter whether anyone likes, or will accept, > any of my proposals? I don't know what you refer to by "your mailing list", but there are reasons why not just any random idea-generator is welcomed on the committee-internal mailing list. You have provided an ample example why that is necessary. > Why should I not have to pay, for example, $100, or $200, to have a > suggestion be reviewed and considered, by someone in the standards process? There's no requirement to pay anyone anything. If you wish to seek paid help, this is not the place. > Why do I have to become part of the standards process; to seriously invest > myself in it; when all I want is to float an idea, and have it be properly > represented? "Properly represented"? You want things to just happen, without doing any work? -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "ISO C++ Standard - Future Proposals" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to std-proposals+unsubscribe@isocpp.org. To post to this group, send email to std-proposals@isocpp.org. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/a/isocpp.org/group/std-proposals/. .