From 5623545457081141890 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: f78e5,9011001c33401f25 X-Google-Attributes: gidf78e5,public From: jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) Subject: Re: Premises of Fleming's accusations Date: 1995/05/10 Message-ID: <3opj7i$4po@News1.mcs.com> X-Deja-AN: 102316901 references: <3o690v$mu@News1.mcs.com> <3o8qgb$d3c@punchdown.zocalo.com> <3oka3j$gb7@News1.mcs.com> <3opcai$mfa@tools.near.net> organization: Unir Corporation mime-version: 1.0 newsgroups: comp.std.c++ In article <3opcai$mfa@tools.near.net>, barmar@nic.near.net says... > >In article <3oka3j$gb7@News1.mcs.com> jim.fleming@bytes.com (Jim Fleming) writes: >>In article <3o8qgb$d3c@punchdown.zocalo.com>, kal@chromatic.com says... >>>Premise 1: AT&T has a major say in C++ standard. >>> >>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ >>The DRAFT standard was released from by Bjarne Stroustrup and >>Andrew Koenig on a machine at (@) research.att.com... > >So? Just because they offered use of their FTP server they must be >controlling the content? Even assuming AT&T made use of their FTP server >contingent on certain decisions going their way, what would be the point? >Do you think there was no one else on the committee who could have provided >an alternate server? > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Where is the final editing done? Is there one "true" source document? @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ >>If you do not think that AT&T has a huge "emotional" stake in C++ >>then you clearly have not walked the halls of AT&T and encountered >>what are now openly called, "The C++ Police", by AT&T employees...:) > >Are you speaking the same language as the rest of us? There's a huge >difference between a "stake" and a "say". The first means that you care >what happens, while the second means that you control what happens. While >having a stake is likely to make one want to have a say, it doesn't mean >you'll get it. > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ OK...so we agree AT&T has a "stake"... You seem to think they do not have much say... ...can you verify that...? @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ >>>All the companies participating in the standarization have >>>just one vote > >>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ >>One vote...give me a break...I was on an ANSI committee, the "deals" >>are made well before any vote... > >You're right, there's lots of compromising behind the scenes. Creating an >ANSI standard is a political process. But it's no less democratic than US >government. Just about any process that tries to get a large group to form >a concensus is bound to run into this problem. > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Thank God we agree that the deals are made "behind the scenes"... Can you give us some background on how the C++ class library was selected? @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ >But this doesn't mean that all the decisions go the way any specific member >wants. Eventually, everyone has to give in and compromise. > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Of course after the deals are made behind the scenes, there is little need for compromise at a meeting. This should allow more time for sightseeing, golf, and relaxation... :) @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ >>>premise 3: All the participants in the standardization are >>>there for commercial benefit. >>> >>>Tha fact is that the C++ community owes a lot to the >>>individuals who put so much of effort in bringing >>>out the standard and all this for absolutely no monetary >>>benefit. >>> >>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ >>What a joke. Have you looked at "their" pay checks, royalty checks, >>payments from "selling" software, from consulting gigs....??? >>@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ > >Many employers consider time spent at standards committee meetings almost >wasted; they would much rather that the employees be home, actually writing >code, helping customers, etc. If they were more "productive" they would >probably get larger raises. > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ I think most employers view the cost as advertising... ...standards work is clearly more "marketing" than technical... @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ >>>"Draft Standard C++ library" was obsolete by the time it hit >>>the market. >>> >>Is it really obsolete? >>Are the order forms to "buy" the software from Plum Hall, Inc. obsolete? > >Just because you can buy something doesn't mean it isn't obsolete. If you >buy SunOS 4.x you'll still get a non-ANSI C compiler. I would consider >that incredibly obsolete, not just by a year or so like Plauger's book. > @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Do you think a standard should endorse copyrighted or patented software? @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ >>Are the comments that P.J. Plauger made regarding the fact that he >>retains all copyright rights obsolete? > >I don't see what Plauger's copyright has to do with the fact that his book >describes an early version of the language. If someone had written a book >describing Newtonian mechanics the year before relativity was discovered, >its copyright would still have been valid afterward. >-- >Barry Margolin @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ Does anyone know how many vendors currently sell source code for the proposed standard ANSI C++ Class Libraries...? @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ -- Jim Fleming /|\ Unir Corporation Unir Technology, Inc. jrf@tiger.bytes.com / | \ One Naperville Plaza 184 Shuman Blvd. #100 %Techno Cat I / | \ Naperville, IL 60563 Naperville, IL 60563 East End, Tortola |____|___\ 1-708-505-5801 1-800-222-UNIR(8647) British Virgin Islands__|______ 1-708-305-3277 (FAX) 1-708-305-0600 \__/-------\__/ http:199.3.34.13 telnet: port 5555 Smooth Sailing on Cruising C+@amarans ftp: 199.3.34.12 <-----stargate----+ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\____to the end of the OuterNet_|