From 8968073795267152184 X-Google-Thread: f78e5,174aa7b34b06a51 X-Google-Attributes: gidf78e5,public X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit Path: g2news1.google.com!news3.google.com!news2.volia.net!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newsfeed.vmunix.org!peer-uk.news.demon.net!kibo.news.demon.net!news.demon.co.uk!demon!stump.algebra.com!devnull From: chris@phaedsys.org (Chris Hills) Newsgroups: comp.std.c++ Subject: Re: Is this really unspecified behavior? Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:22:11 GMT Organization: Phaedrus Systems Lines: 69 Sender: mail2news@demon.net Approved: fjh@cs.mu.oz.au (Fergus Henderson , moderator of comp.std.c++) Message-ID: References: <1132759176.368850.264850@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1132933832.802917.153350@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1133551647.532929.325730@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com> <1133583412.951239.208510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1133910546.716987.80030@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <0l5ep1ppfhdj5p1pcu7e4na4ub0vjajlq3@4ax.com> <200512201408.jBKE8g64093941@mailbox7.ucsd.edu> <1135116348.175747.219310@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com> <1135175196.060746.148580@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: news.news.demon.net Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Trace: news.demon.co.uk 1135434142 2959 158.152.254.254 (24 Dec 2005 14:22:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@demon.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:22:22 +0000 (UTC) X-Robomod: STUMP, ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at cs.mu.OZ.AU X-Reply-To: Chris Hills X-Received: (from fjh@localhost) by mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU (8.12.10+Sun/8.12.9/Submit) id jBOEMBEu023728; Sun, 25 Dec 2005 01:22:11 +1100 (EST) X-Path: comp-std-cpp-robomod!not-for-mail X-Delivered-To: std-c++@ucar.edu X-Authentication-Warning: mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU: fjh set sender to devnull@stump.algebra.com using -f X-Newsreader: Turnpike Integrated Version 5.01 M <7y9ouFdz6gbBVVTek6rkWKl0do> X-Newsgroups: comp.std.c++ Xref: g2news1.google.com comp.std.c++:2907 In article , Edward Diener No Spam writes >Christopher Dearlove wrote: >> Hyman Rosen wrote: >> >>>Fortunately, specifying order of evaluation >>>does not involve breaking anything. >> >> >> Except existing compilers. > >It would not break existing compilers, it would change them. Which is the same thing? >I view the >programmer as more important than the compiler implementors when >designing a programming language. Good for you. Many have taken this view and their dead languages can be found littering the pages of history. They usually died because they could not convince enough people to write decent tools for the language. >> And hence it would be ten years or more > >I am glad you have measured this so accurately. Ten years or more is somewhere between 10 and infinity. In other words not less than 10 years. This is reasonable as virtually no one has implemented C99 in the 6 years it has been out (and very few are pushing for it) people are STILL hanging on to C90 (and bit so K&R) some 15 years later. I think at least 10 years is a good estimate as it will require substantial engineering effort for most compiler writers. These are the people you think of as "less important". Remind me, how were you going pursued then to do all this work. >> before we could usefully rely on this even after specification, whilst >> in the transition period I suspect there would likely be more resulting >> bugs, not fewer. So it wouldn't be, I submit, a painless process. > >Then you might as well argue that any change to any language will change >existing compilers and therefore should never be made. This could be argued. It is a case of balancing. Is the new feature that important that users demand it and compiler companies will spend time and effort on it? This is a commercial problem as much as an engineering one. History is littered with dead languages that are academically good but never made it commercially. -- \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ --- [ comp.std.c++ is moderated. To submit articles, try just posting with ] [ your news-reader. If that fails, use mailto:std-c++@ncar.ucar.edu ] [ --- Please see the FAQ before posting. --- ] [ FAQ: http://www.jamesd.demon.co.uk/csc/faq.html ]